This month, we’re covering The Two Killings of Sam Cooke. This documentary is a part of Netflix's ReMastered series, and it takes a look at the untold story of the legendary soul singer and civil rights activist, Sam Cooke. We have the director Kelly Duane De La Vega speaking with Tracy Clayton, host of the new Netflix original podcast Strong Black Legends.
This month, we’re covering The Two Killings of Sam Cooke. This documentary is a part of Netflix's ReMastered series, and it takes a look at the untold story of the legendary soul singer and civil rights activist, Sam Cooke.
We have the director Kelly Duane De La Vega speaking with Tracy Clayton, host of the new Netflix original podcast Strong Black Legends.
[Music]
Rae: Welcome to You Can’t Make This Up, a companion podcast from Netflix. I’m Rae Votta, and I’m hosting this week’s episode. Here on You Can’t Make This Up, we go behind the scenes with special guests to talk about the true crime stories you can watch on Netflix. This month, we’re covering The Two Killings of Sam Cooke. This documentary is part of ReMastered, a Netflix original series. This eight-track series investigates, rediscovers, and reimagines high profile events featuring some of the most legendary names in music. This episode, we’re taking a look at the untold story of the legendary soul singer and civil rights activist, Sam Cooke. We have the director, Kelly Duane de la Vega speaking with Tracy Clayton. You might know Tracy from the podcast Another Round or the new Netflix original podcast, Strong Black Legends. Take it away Tracy and Kelly.
Tracy: I am genuinely and super excited to talk about this documentary because it’s like the perfect intersection of who I am, kind of. I’m obsessed with true crime documentaries and podcasts and all of the television shows on investigation discovery, but also I love Sam Cooke, and I love Sam Cooke because my mom, when I was little, decided that I didn’t like rap music. [Laughs]
Kelly: Oh, really?
Tracy: Yeah, she was telling my brother, you know, we need to change this station. We don’t like rap music, do we, Tracy? I like, no, hmm. And so she would give me her music to listen to, and Sam Cooke, ah, I still think I have my best of Sam Cooke cassette tape. So I’m very, very curious if you have some affinity for Sam Cooke as well. What led you to tell this story and work on this project?
Kelly: First of all, the first part of what my connection was to Sam Cooke is when I grew up, my bedroom window, if you open the window, you could hear everybody chatting on the street, and there were a lot of people chatting, and I had a neighbor who always played The Staple Singers and Sam Cooke, and he’s crank it. And I would just fall asleep to it, and I loved it. And I finally got the courage to go next door and then go across the street and ask, what is that? Who is singing that? And I think he was a bit charmed, and he gave me two records.
Tracy: Aww.
Kelly: So in some ways, I have this real deep childhood connection to Sam Cooke, and my father was in the civil rights movement, and he was in Albany, GA and also Jackson, MS for a period. So “Change Is Gonna Come” was a song that was just on the record player from time to time. It was sort of a song that over the course of my life, that I would go to in times of deep pain. What I always think about that song is that it both exposes incredible injustices and incredible pain, but it has this thread of optimism, and you know, and sometimes we don’t all feel that optimistic.
Tracy: Listen, don’t get me started. [Laughs]
Kelly: Yeah, exactly, so I’d go to that song, and it helped me try to believe that we could do better as a nation and as a people.
Tracy: When I hear that song, I always think about that scene in Malcom X, Spike Lee’s movie, and I think it’s like the day before he’s going to get murdered, and there’s just like him going through Harlem and that song is playing. He’s got this look in his eye, and I just remember being like, this is the perfect song for this scene, you know? Like, I mean—and I don’t even know if I have the words to describe it, you know? It was always just like yes, this fits. This feels right.
Kelly: Exactly. And I felt so lucky I got to talk to people like Mark Anthony Neal and Kevin Powell, and they were able to put words to I think what you’re describing and what I felt. And I think obviously people interact with that song really differently, but to have these big, thoughtful thinkers be able to articulate some of those deep feelings was one of the big pleasures of making the film.
Tracy: And thing that I always look forward to in music documentaries is like who’s going to come to talk about this amazing person, so I’m watching them, just like, oh my gosh, it’s Quincy Jones, oh my gosh, it’s Dionne Warwick. So I would love to talk about and get into how one makes a documentary. You know, what’s the first step?
Kelly: Right. So for me, I’ve made a lot of films, and most of them are actually verité films, and this was a little different for me, because I haven’t made what we sort of refer to as the talking head or archival film in a pretty long time. And the executive producers of ReMastered approached me and asked me if I would do the Sam Cooke episode, and I had this both like deep so excited—
Tracy: Was that just happenstance that they happened to need someone to make a documentary on one of your favorite singers?
Kelly: Yes.
Tracy: Wow.
Kelly: But you know, in our community, I feel really conflicted being—am I entitled to tell this story? And I think these are the questions we have to start asking, especially because so many white historians and white documentary filmmakers have been in position to tell stories that are not indigenous to their own life experience, and I felt—you know, I remember, when they called, at one level I was like jumping out of my seat. I was also totally—I was in between projects, so I was kind of broke, and [Laughs] my husband was thrilled, and my kids couldn’t believe it, and then I kind of had to sit down and say, is this okay? Is this right? And making that choice, if I’m just totally frank with you, I’m not—I still struggle with that, but what I felt like the decision I made, and I spoke with my husband at length about it—was that I wanted every voice of authority in the film to be from—to be African American. I was like, I want every historian, I want every intellectual to be African American, and I wanted gender parity, and I wanted to sort of make sure that that was at the forefront. And then I was like, and then white people who are actually friends with Sam or are talking from a personal standpoint, then I would interview them and include them and their voices, but that’s about a friendship or a personal experience. So that’s sort of how I approached it. And the executive producers, I think, at first, they were like huh, that’s interesting, because all of my interview list would come back, but I think ultimately, everybody was really supportive of that direction.
Tracy: Yeah. I’m very interested to know what it was that finally made you say, okay, I feel at least okay enough to take on this project.
Kelly: I mean, if I’m frank, it was never 100 percent that I’m entitled to do that. I think I struggle with that. What made me say yes was partially financial, just having to put food on the table.
Tracy: I’ve been there.
Kelly: Yeah. [Laughter] And also feeling like there aren’t enough women directors that are getting bit opportunities, and you know, I felt like somebody was giving me this opportunity, and as a woman, I felt grateful for that and also concerned about turning it down for my long-term career. And then of course, what am I going to do? I love Sam Cooke. And I’ve been emerged in the story of civil rights my whole life just because of how I grew up, so I knew—
Tracy: Through your dad, right?
Kelly: Yeah, through my father, and the way I was raised. I mean, I grew up in Berkeley, and I went to Berkeley public schools at a time where we were all the kids of the anti-war movement, of the Black Panthers, of all these different movements. So I felt like I knew that if I was going to make his story, I wanted to highlight civil rights, and I felt like I knew I could do that in a way that I would feel like I could hold my head up high. And I did consult with Kevin Powell. I called him, and we talked it through. I wish he was on—I was like, oh, I should have had Kevin or Mark Anthony Neal share—do a podcast together, because they’re both such wonderful speakers. But I really wanted—I hammered out ideas with him, and I don’t know. And then somehow I got to a place where I felt like okay, I’m going to do this, and I’ve been really happy with the response. That part has made me feel good.
Tracy: You could tell that there was great care-taking in the telling of this story. I saw the film before I even thought about who was making the film, because I love Sam Cooke. Again, I love true crime documentaries, and I was confused by the title. I was like, two killings of Sam? How does one die twice, [Laughs] you know? And started to think about what I knew about Sam Cooke’s passing and about his life in general, and I realized, not a lot. I didn’t really know a lot about this man whose music I really, really loved. So can you talk a little bit about the title, The Two Killings of Sam Cooke?
Kelly: There was the killing of the man, the physical killing, but there’s also this sort of death of his legacy. And so many people don’t know that he was really an emerging civil rights, black power figure and that there was this incredibly profound way in which he lived his life, and he empowered his own community, that it wasn’t part of the way people talked about Sam or experienced Sam. And of course, there’s people who are well-studied in music, and they know that, but I think the vast majority of the public didn’t know that. And that’s the second death, what happened to his legacy. That’s sort of the metaphor there.
Tracy: Well, I’ll tell you what, I was completely, completely blown away. I had no idea. What really threw me was the footage of after the Thrilla in Manila fight, and Muhammad Ali, who is very dear to my heart as a Louisvillian, he’s like calling for Sam Cooke, and he’s just like, this is Sam Cooke. He’s a great guy, and I’m like, wait, whoa, wait, hey, how’d this happen?
Kelly: I know!
Tracy: How did he get in there? Why don’t people know about that? Do you have any theories on that?
Kelly: Isn’t that incredible? I confess, I also grew up with Muhammad Ali as sort of a hero, and I read David Remnick’s book. He’s such an incredible orator and political figure, and I didn’t know that either, I’m embarrassed to admit. And when I saw it, I just about—I died. Just to think of Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali and Sam Cooke hanging out?
Tracy: Nuts.
Kelly: And it just kind of blew my mind. And also, there was an interesting thing that Muhammad Ali said at the time that we didn’t dig into actually. It didn’t make it into the final cut, because that moment was about something, but I thought was really interesting is he said, this is the greatest rock and roll star. And rock and roll was, you know, according to—this is all me paraphrasing, but Mark Anthony Neal, who is—he’s like, that was deliberate. You know, rock and roll maybe was getting stolen in terms of who identified with who made rock and roll music. And he was giving that to Sam, like saying, Sam owns this. So I thought that was really interesting, too, an interesting little nugget.
Tracy: So you were surprised to find out about that relationships. What else surprised you, while you were making this doc?
Kelly: I mean, it’s interesting. When you make a film—and you alluded to this earlier—how do you make a film? I think everybody does it differently. For me, it’s really total emersion. So I read everything I can find. I look at tons of photographs, even if there’s no way they can be in the film, and essentially listen—I listened to Sam Cooke the entire time I was making the film, basically everywhere I drove. I was just living and breathing Sam Cooke. So in some ways, I learned so much. You know, I thought it was really interesting that he was roommates with Lou Adler, who—I don’t know if know Lou Adler, but they wrote that great song, “I don’t know much about history.”
Tracy: Oh, “What a wonderful world this would be.”
Kelly: Yeah, they wrote that together. And I interviewed Lou. He’s not in the film as much as I wish he was, but Lou Adler grew up in LA in a Jewish family, and he was an aspiring songwriter. And Sam moved to LA, and Sam was a hot shot, and he hadn’t yet go married, and it was before Barbara moved to LA, and they were roommates for this period of time, and they were just constantly writing music together. You know, when he talked about that experience, I think there’s a way in which our music history is really segregated in the way we talk about it. To think about the fact that Sam Cooke was listening to Bob Dylan and covering Bob Dylan and then inspired by Bob Dylan, or you think of Mavis Staples and The Staple Singers covering Bob Dylan, and this sort of intersection and intertwining of these genres of music that I think most people think of as really separate. And it’s fascinating to think that actually, there was much more overlap than in popular consciousness. And also the idea of ownership of music and how that’s been misappropriated over the years is so complicated. It’s part of our entire country’s origin story, so mixed up and complicated. There’s so many things, such a rich history and culture and art that’s emerged out of our country, and then so many things that just break your heart, things to be ashamed of. It’s complicated.
Tracy: This is making me think of when Kevin Powell said, in the film—
[Clip plays]
Kevin: Black blues musicians and jazz musicians and early black rock and roll artists who didn’t really make anything for their music, feels like sharecropping, where you do all the work, you do the labor, it’s your creativity, your energy, and then someone else reaps the benefits of it.
[Clip ends]
Tracy: And I was like, oh my gosh, this is the most perfect and heart-breaking analogy I’ve ever heard.
Kelly: I know. A lot of people tweeted about that line.
Tracy: Yeah, yeah, and I think it’s because a lot of at least media Twitter is going through that right now. There are a lot of white media companies who—who knows what’s really going on? But everybody was like, okay, a lot of the people that are getting cut are brown people, you know? And so, who makes this content, if you won’t keep us around, if you don’t find it interesting enough to keep? What happens to it? And they don’t care, because they’ve got what they need from you. They’ve gotten your money. And earlier you were saying how complicated everything is. I feel like it’s purposely complicated, right? Because so much of the talent that people found and white A&R folks discovered, quote/unquote, a lot of them are poor, you know, need money, and black people in general haven’t had the access to education and everything. I’m preaching to the choir. You know how it is.
Kelly: Yeah, I do, I do. But I think it’s good to talk about it. I think it’s good to talk about it, and I think it’s good for all of us that are, you know, aligned to get into these uncomfortable conversations about this conversation. How do we collectively respect each other and honor each other but also acknowledge the power and privileged structure in place and our role in it and how we’re benefiting from it. I think about that a lot.
Tracy: Yeah. It’s such a tiring problem to think about because I feel like what it comes down to at the end of the day is money, and it’s like how do you convince a millionaire to care more about people than his money?
Kelly: Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know. We got to work on it together. [Laughs]
Tracy: I know. I don’t know. Well, we didn’t solve racism this episode, everybody. Maybe the next one.
Kelly: [Laughs] Yeah, exactly. With the white lady, she hasn’t fixed it. Darn it. [Laughter]
Tracy: I mean, I think we just started a spin-off podcast, personally.
Kelly: Yeah, there you go. There you go. There you go. We’ll just take it on. We’ll get it done in our lifetime, no problem.
Tracy: So, was it difficult to book somebody like Quincy Jones?
Kelly: So, I will say the show had a really strong booking team, so that wasn’t on me. There were two people I really wanted to interview among many, but Aretha Franklin, who said yes, and then she was too sick.
Tracy: Aw. You said, she had said yes?
Kelly: She had said yes, so the whole time I was making the film, I thought I was going to meet Aretha Franklin. I mean, it was terrifying. Aretha Franklin. That’s just so scary. I feel like—
Tracy: Oh my gosh.
Kelly: So she was one, and the other was Mavis Staples, and I sort of have worshipped her my whole—for a very long time, and I loved when I found out she had been in relationship with Bob Dylan sort of during this time period. I thought wow, that’s so interesting.
Tracy: What? Like romantic relationship?
Kelly: Yes!
Tracy: Mavis Staples and Bob Dylan?
Kelly: Yes!
Tracy: Ah!
Kelly: Isn’t that a crazy thought?
Tracy: What is happening? [Laughs]
Kelly: I know. I was desperate for her, and then also, she was also married to—there’s a gentleman who’s not in the film that often, but he ran and runs a funeral parlor in Chicago, and he was her first husband. And his funeral parlor was the one who hosted Sam Cooke’s funeral.
Tracy: Oh wow.
Kelly: So she had all these ways in which she was connected to him, so she—I really, really wanted her, and she was never available. But Quincy Jones was a delight. I mean, he welcomed us into his house, and three hours later, we’re just hanging out. I was like what? Hanging out at Quincy Jones’ house? How is this possible?
Tracy: Did you know that his middle name was actually Delight?
Kelly: No.
Tracy: It’s true. It’s true. You can Google it right now, Quincy Delight Jones.
Kelly: All right, well the mom knew what was up. [Laughter] She knew before any of us that he was going to be a Delight. And he just talked about everything under the sun. Another thing I thought was so lovely is with the whole crew, you’d go one by one, like where are you from? And we had an international crew that day, and he would then tell a story, like an origin story from whatever country, but it was kind of amazing just to spend that time with him, and he was so gracious.
Tracy: Yeah. He sounds so kind.
Kelly: And then Smokey Robinson.
Tracy: Can I tell you a secret that we can’t leave in the published—
Kelly: Yes.
Tracy: All the producers are like, go on. [Laughs] Smokey Robinson has always scared me.
Kelly: Okay.
Tracy: Like he’s—I don’t know what it is. It could be—there’s something about his eyes.
Kelly: Have you ever seen him in person?
Tracy: No. I would die. [Laughs]
Kelly: You would die? Okay. So I was on three weeks for this—I’m a mother of two, so it’s a little irresponsible to—not irresponsible, but you know, it’s not that often that I leave my kids for more than—five day is usually what I try to keep it down to, and as a filmmaker, you do that, and my kids are tough, and they can deal. But I was on the road for a long time, and we had always wanted Smokey Robinson, and I was flying home from Chicago. I was completely exhausted, total train wreck, you know? And I get a text. Smokey Robinson said, yes, but it has to be in LA tomorrow.
Tracy: Oh my gosh.
Kelly: And I thought, my kids haven’t seen me in three weeks, and I’m not going to—I’m going to come home and then get on a plane? So I was like, I don’t know if I can do it, and I didn’t know what to do. And then eventually, they talked me into it, and I got up the next morning at 5:00 a.m., and I flew down to LA.
Tracy: What? I’m tired just listening to this story.
Kelly: I know. It’s exhausting. So I get there. We’re in this gorgeous mansion, and in comes Smokey Robinson, so beautiful, like it’s extraordinary in real life. I don’t always think on camera it translates to me.
Tracy: Is that what it is, or is he actually a secret android, and I’m the only person who knows?
Kelly: No. But here’s the thing. You’ve tapped into something. He comes in. First of all, he’s got a very large, like extra, extra, extra large pure white lab with him, like the most gorgeous white lab. I don’t even know if it’s a lab, because it was so big. And he walks in, and he’s so elegant. I mean, he’s almost like a dancer in his physicality in just that—he sits down. He has this incredible, peaceful aura. And I don’t know—you know, I’ve interviewed a lot of people, and I’m sure you have, too. Obviously you have. And even if it’s someone you admire and you’re excited, sometimes you’re just kind of drained after. And a lot of the times, when you interview famous people, they’re very focused on themselves, right? And that’s part of how they got there, and maybe they deserve it, but I sat down with him. A, he’s like the least narcissistic famous person I’ve ever met.
Tracy: That’s good.
Kelly: Like just so gracious towards Sam, so generous towards everybody he spoke about. He just lifted everybody up. And then he had this bizarre energy that just elevated you where you actually were getting more energy than less, so maybe you are on to something. He laughed, and I was like rejuvenated as a person. I was like, what just happened?
Tracy: [Laughs] I was going to say you might have me rethink my feelings about Smokey Robinson, but also maybe you’ve given me more evidence. I don’t know. Gotta think about it.
Kelly: This could go either way.
Tracy: Could go.
Kelly: You know, he’s like a transcendental—he meditates. He’s been meditating since the 1970s. He’s got this core of like—I don’t know. But I don’t know. He is an extraordinary, unusual, absolutely stunningly beautiful human being, both in personality and physical.
Tracy: Hm. Okay. I hear you out. I hear you. I think I need to meet the dog. That will help me to decide.
Kelly: The dog will blow your mind. The dog will blow your mind. [Laughter] I have one really good untold story, if you’re interested—
Tracy: Ooh, yes please. Absolutely.
Kelly: —that is not 100 percent fact checked, but I think I’m comfortable putting out in the world, which is that we spoke with—and I say we. One of the executive producers on the show knew Ambassador Shabazz personally. I really wanted her to be in the film. And just so you know, I worked really hard. I wanted there to be parity from men and women, and I wanted her in there. And she ultimately decided not to do it, but she did say that she believed that “Change Is Gonna Come” was written for Malcom X, and that it was—and she might have even said that Sam Cooke told her father that that song was a gift to him.
Tracy: Oh my gosh.
Kelly: So I don’t know if it’s 100 percent true, but I think it’s—
Tracy: I’m sorry, written like once he passed—no, that doesn’t make any sense.
Kelly: No. Before, like when they were in the movement, and I like to think that Malcom X touched Sam in some way in terms of just how he thought, and it inspired him to write that story. So I don’t know that’s a fact, but that was shared with me, and I just thought—it also deepened the connection to the song in terms of understanding where it came from.
Tracy: Also, it’s just such a tender act, you know, between two black men, and nobody ever equates black men with tenderness and sweetness and writing a song for someone, you know what I mean? This is—ah!
Kelly: Well, when you look at Sam and Muhammad Ali singing “The Gang’s All Here” at the time—
Tracy: Ah, that was the cutest in the world.
[Clip plays]
Kelly: That’s right. And I will tell you this. Every single person that I interviewed that knew Sam spoke about him like he was somebody they had a massive crush on. You know, whether it was a dude—it didn’t matter who it was. And they all—he clearly inspired incredible affection and emulated kindness. I mean, most of the people, almost every single one, they kept coming back. They all sort of said, oh, well you kind of just can’t help but fall in love with him, you know? Anyway.
Tracy: So why do you think it is that we don’t know this about Sam Cooke? How did we lose him? Where did he get lost?
Kelly: That’s such a good question. Over the course of making the film, I would come up with one theory after another, and sometimes, they were debunked. I do think there’s something about the fact that when he died, because it was scandalous, that there was sort of this hijacking of his legacy. His legacy really should have been what he was doing in terms of empowering the black community. And also, I think this is Mark Anthony Neal talks about this in the film, but this incredible code switcher, like he was really operating in a profound and deep way in both the white community and the black community. I think some of that got—that part of his legacy really got hijacked by the story of how he died, and then it became kind of scandalous story that changed the way a lot of people thought about him. I mean, I don’t think it changed how a lot of people in the African American community thought of him. Maybe it did. I don’t know, but certainly, if you’re some white person from a distance that doesn’t have any level of skepticism towards the stories you’re being told, it’s like oh, wow, that’s kind of an upsetting way that he died. And I think that for a time, that’s how the stories—the stories circled around that, because it was sordid, and that’s sort of how our culture gravitates to those kind of stories.
And then you know, that incredible story that his Live At Harlem Square album sat in a vault for 20 years, and it wasn’t until some young guy, like he discovered them in the vault and decided 20 years later, saw that he could bring them to life. And I also think—you know, I don’t want to speak out of turn, and I don’t want to get into it, but I also think whoever is managing the vision of who he is, there was obviously a certain vision that has been put out into the world, and it’s a little bit more of the slick, Sam Cooke at the Copa, and everybody I talked to said, he loved the Copa and he loved his success there and he loved his ability to move in different worlds, but he also really had this deep connection to his own community, and somehow that part just was lost for many people.
Tracy: And also harkening back to the sharecropping analogy, from earlier, you know, if the people who are controlling the media that we consume are people who haven’t been steeped in or are interested in that part of his life, of course they’re going to focus on the sensational way that he passed. So when we can’t tell our stories, when we’re left at the bottom of the change, it’s kind of like cranking out content, you know? Our stories do get lost, you know?
Kelly: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Tracy: Okay, conspiracy theory time. Who do you think did it? [Laughter]
Kelly: This is a hard one for me, because I did talk to a lot of people, not everybody in the film. I brought stuff to investigative criminal experts, and what I kept getting back was that they didn’t believe there was necessarily evidence to confirm one way or the other that something was wrong. So to me—with the official story. I think almost nobody believes the official, official story.
Tracy: Yeah, so weird.
Kelly: It is weird, but I also think—to me, the thing I could have concrete or that I could think about concretely is if we as a culture don’t value people’s lives and investigate, either protect them from being killed by law enforcement or meaningfully investigate the deaths of people, that what that does is it just breeds incredible distrust, right? As long as we’re contributing, we’re creating a culture where institutions are not places that everybody in the community feels they can turn to. Then it breeds conspiracy theories. And the problem with this point of time and this moment in history is that there were really brutal assassinations of powerful black intellectuals and black leaders that really make the idea of it being a crazy conspiracy sort of feel much less crazy. So I don’t know. I don’t know what happened, you know. On different days I believe different things. On our team, people believe different things. One executive producer was like, it was definitely the mob!
Tracy: That’s what I thought for a really long—like, for a whole 20 minutes, and I was like well, but that woman was weird, you know? Maybe she just like went—I don’t know.
Kelly: Also, she was a motel owner in a really dangerous neighborhood, right? And so—
Tracy: Yeah, yeah. I don’t know about the—not the lady who pulled the trigger.
Kelly: The other woman, right.
Tracy: Yes. Here’s what I think happened, if I may.
Kelly: Okay, lay it on me. Lay it on e.
Tracy: Okay, here’s what I think happened. I think that he was indeed a threat to the FBI? CIA? I can’t remember which one, either/or. And I think they knew that he may have been a bit of a womanizer, you know, attractive young man.
Kelly: Yes, definitely.
Tracy: Uh-huh, and I think that they sent her there to set him up somehow, right? Maybe to bug the room and get something on—because Sam whatever—or maybe even to kill him. And I think something odd happened. They end up in the motel lobby or whatever, and then the lady is like, oh hell no. Nobody is killing me on today. And then that’s what happened.
Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tracy: I think that I think that that’s what happened, at least today. We should check in again next week.
Kelly: Okay. I’m willing to go—I flip flop all the time. I like it. You’re not alone, and I’ll tell you one thing that’s really interesting. I interviewed a lot of people, as you can tell, in the film, and at the end, a lot of people were like, I can’t talk about his death. I can’t talk about it. I can’t talk about it. And then when the cameras are off, and we’re shutting down, and we’re chatting, you know, people would pull you in the backroom, and they’re like, I think this happened. So what I do think is all the people who were close to him also, they have their own theories, but they’re kind of scared.
Tracy: Really?
Kelly: They’re still scared.
Tracy: What does the theory seem—if you had to generalize, what is the most popular theory?
Kelly: I mean, they’re all over the map, but I mean, a lot of them echo what you said. I think even Elvis thought what you said. I think that was one of Elvis’ theories.
Tracy: Elvis?
Kelly: Yeah, who apparently was his friend, yeah. But a lot of people, I think, think it’s the mob, and they were afraid if they said it on tape, something could happen to them. So I don’t know. I think it could have been just a collection of really awful mishaps that just led to this utterly tragic end. I think that if we had a society that treated that death with more meaning and more sort of—took it seriously, I mean, we talked to the cops who were working in that precinct at the time, and we talked to Joan Du [phonetic 00:34:32] who was a reporter, and she talks about going down to the precinct, and she had a personal relationship with Sam, and she’s like, what’s going on? And we know the culture of the LAPD at that time and how seriously they considered black on black crime and how little they were interested in investigating, and I think that that’s why we don’t know, and that’s why it’s an open wound for people who fall in love with Sam Cooke and learn about his legacy and really want closure. When you don’t have closure, you have an open wound of hurt for generations.
Tracy: That feels like the most appropriate wrap for this conversation. I think that was beautiful and lovely. Before you head out, what are you working on next? I definitely am invested already because I was so impressed with this film. What’s next on the pipeline?
Kelly: So I’m working on a film about growing up female in the South and sort of through the lens of religion and the political establishment and telling young girls’ and women’s stories from different altitudes of power and privilege.
Tracy: Wow.
Kelly: And I know you’re Southern, right?
Tracy: Yeah. I mean, if you need someone to talk to, you know, I might be around.
Kelly: I do. I do. So we might have to get you to—you know, whenever I make a film, I think it’s so important to have people that are from and place and from the culture. It should be deeply involved. Yeah, so that’s what I’m working on, and I also work at an organization that provides grants for diverse women across the globe, and I’m really proud of that, grants to make documentary films.
Tracy: Ah, yes, give more money to women all the time. I love it.
Kelly: They’re called Chicken & Egg Pictures, and they have over the last almost 15 years funded over 300 women and have been really instrumental in empowering women directors, and it’s a really diverse staff, and there’s a really deep commitment to diversity and inclusion in terms of who’s funded.
Tracy: Well that is fantastic. And as a lover of chickens, alive and fried, I love the name. [Laughter] Where can people find you on the internet or on social media?
Kelly: You can find me at Twitter @kellyduane, k-e-l-l-y-d-u-a-n-e, and you can find me on the internet at threeframes.org.
Tracy: All right. I cannot stress enough how good this film is. Kelly, thank you so much for taking the time out of your, I’m sure, busy, busy schedule to chat with us, and call me about this documentary.
Kelly: It was such a pleasure. I loved every second talking to you.
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Rae: Before we let you go, we’ve got one more treat for you. You know the segment. It’s time for, Whatcha Watchin’? It’s where we found out what the people in this episode are watching on Netflix.
Kelly: I devoured Russian Doll. I loved it. The first two episodes, it took me a little while, and I will say that Natasha Lyonne tweeted about Sam Cooke, and I just kind of crushed out. Okay, so then Narcos, I do love Narcos. There is a beautiful jazz film called I Called Him Morgan that is a one-off documentary that’s incredible. And Roma, I watched.
Tracy: I’m going to check out all of those. Confession, I didn’t love Russian Doll. I got like—I just couldn’t get into it. I stayed with like—until like five episodes.
Kelly: That’s a long time. If you’re not feeling it after five, then that’s real commitment. Then you’re all set. You’re in good shape.
Tracy: But you know what? I randomly did that with another Netflix series I thought started off slow, but something was like, just keep watching, just keep watching. It’s Disenchantment made by Matt—I cannot pronounce his last name ever. The Simpsons guy, so that guy. Disenchantment is a series about a princess, right? I love it. I love anything about a princess who would rather drink and cuss and gamble and fight than do princessy stuff. And just like the elves, Elfo, and just—ah, it’s just a good time. It’s a really, really good, fun time if you can stick with it. Our Planet, ah, I just—
Kelly: Our Planet is a must?
Tracy: Oh my gosh, yes, absolutely. It’s a nature documentary of course, but it’s just like—it’s like a nature documentary in like 3D or something. I don’t know, like the colors seem brighter, the footage is amazing, David Attenborough is David Attenboroughing, which is always necessary for a good nature documentary, and I mean, it’s just so pretty. Sadly, lots of animals die as soon as you fall in love with the, because that’s how it goes. I know. Then ironically, I go from that to Forensic Files, which all 877,000 episodes, I think, are on Netflix.
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Rae: And that’s it for this week’s episode. We’ll be back next month with a new series or film for you to add to your watch list. You can find this show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Good Play, Spotify, and wherever else you get your podcasts. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review this show. It helps other people find it, and it makes us feel like we’re getting a virtual hug right from you. You Can’t Make This Up is a production of Pineapple Street Media and Netflix. Our music is by Hansdale Hsu. I’m Rae Votta, and thank you so much for listening.
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