One year ago, Netflix released all 13 episodes of The Staircase, a documentary series that follows the trials of Michael Peterson. In this month's episode, we revisit the landmark series. Aaron Lammer (host of the Longform podcast) spoke with director Jean-Xavier de Lestrade to discuss the making of The Staircase and its legacy.
One year ago, Netflix released all 13 episodes of The Staircase, a documentary series that follows the trials of Michael Peterson. In this month's episode, we revisit the landmark series. Aaron Lammer (host of the Longform podcast) spoke with director Jean-Xavier de Lestrade to discuss the making of The Staircase and its legacy.
Rae: Welcome to You Can’t Make This Up, a companion podcast from Netflix.
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Rae: I’m Rae Votta and I am hosting this week’s episode. Here on You Can’t Make This Up, we go behind the scenes of Netflix original true crime stories with special guests. This month, we’re revisiting the iconic documentary, The Staircase. After airing in France in 2004, the original documentary series had not one, but two follow-ups. And last year, together for the first time, Netflix released all 13 episodes. The Staircase follows the trials of Michael Peterson, a novelist in Durham, North Carolina who’s accused of murdering his wife, Kathleen. And French director, Jean-Xavier de Lestrade, has been there every step of the way, filming Michael Peterson, his family and his defense team for over 15 years. We wanted to revisit The Staircase one year later and talk to the director about what the documentary has meant to him over the years, and what he thinks about the growing trend of true crime that he helped pioneer. We brought in self-proclaimed Staircase mega-fan and host of the Longform Podcast, Aaron Lammer to interview Jean-Xavier.
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Aaron: So the first movie of yours that was distributed in America is Murder on a Sunday Morning. But I know from your Wikipedia page that you had done stuff before that. How did the Michael Peterson story first come to you? How did you become aware of it?
Jean-Xavier: Well, that’s a long story, but I try to tell you it in a short way. Murder on a Sunday Morning, in part, produced by HBO—and HBO was very happy with Murder on a Sunday Morning, and they really wanted to do another movie. At the beginning, I say no because it’s so difficult to find a very good story. Because when you start, you never know what will happen. And we—in a way, we were a little bit lucky with Murder on a Sunday Morning, when you have to provoke the luck twice, it’s becoming difficult. They put pressure and say, “Okay, we really want another, another movie and try, at least, to find a story.” So we had a team, a kind of crew all around the States. What I said to them was very simple, because Murder on a Sunday Morning was the case about a young American African teenager, with being accused of having killed a woman. I wanted to find a case what would be the opposite of Murder on a Sunday Morning. So I told the people that I wanted a case about a white guy, [inaudible 00:02:55] known in his own community, a man was able to pay private defense lawyer—that was mainly the starting point. And it took—maybe we reviewed—we have reviewed at least 400 different cases. And suddenly, in January 2002, a journalist from North Carolina sent us some mail in Paris, and the mail was very simple—two lines. “I have a case, a novelist, Michael Peterson, is accused of having killed his wife. He’s well-known. And his lawyer is David Rudolf, who is very good lawyer. He’s saying it’s an accident.” And so—well, interesting. We took a flight and we went to meet David Rudolf first. And the day after Rudolf, we met with Michael Peterson. First of all, David Rudolf seems to be a very good character, very good lawyer, smart and very open. And that was a good start. So the day after we met with—Michael Peterson, and Michael Peterson appear to be also very good character. Not so charming than David Rudolf, but you could immediately feel that there was, like, a mystery around this guy, something you couldn’t catch immediately. There was a strong intuition I had that was, like, ghost in the room when you were with him. And at some point, you have to trust your intuition or your deep feeling. And so I said, “Okay, okay.” We are going to start to shoot. So we start shooting and I thought that in six months, that the shooting of the documentary would have been finished, but we stay 22 months.
Aaron: You seem to gravitate towards lawyers as the subject of your movie. I mean, you could even say that The Staircase is equally about David Rudolf, as it is about Michael Peterson. What fascinates you about lawyers and why are they good subjects for films?
Jean-Xavier: Well, in fact, I have a law degree—I actually lawyering four years in college and it was only having that law degree that I did journalism studies. But I have always—be very focused or interested in justice system, because I think the—maybe the justice system is one of the best ways to, to look into a democracy—how that democracy is working or not working. So I try to do it in France, but in France it’s very, very difficult to shoot inside a courtroom, to follow lawyers. And so I went to the, to the States. You can say that United States are the biggest democracy in the world, and just to—how can I say that? To challenge that title, in a way—I wanted to, to look at it through the justice system, how it works and is it fair or not.
Aaron: What were your impressions when you first set foot in an American courtroom? What were the biggest surprises for you as you started to spend time around the American justice system?
Jean-Xavier: The biggest surprise, and the biggest difference between a courtroom in Europe or—especially in France or Italy or Spain, than in a courtroom in the U.S.—in France, you get a sense that in a courtroom the judge is there to, to try to find the truth, in a way. And it’s not, of course, always easy. When you, you go in a—in the U.S. courtroom, you immediately get the sense that it’s not really about truth. It’s more about a story against another story. It’s more about storytelling, in fact, and that’s why it’s so great for filmmakers. Because in one hand, you have the GS [phonetic 00:08:04] story and especially in the Michael Peterson case, the D.A. was saying, “Okay, it’s a murder,” and the, the defense lawyer, David Rudolf, were, were saying, “No, it’s an accident. Fall down the stairs.” Maybe the more compelling story or the more, more believable story by the jury will win the—and but at the end, we don't know. Is it truth or not? And it’s, it’s controversial system.
Aaron: For you personally, what made you make the switch from a law path to a journalism and then a documentary path?
Jean-Xavier: When I was a child, I was dreaming that one day I will tell stories with a camera. But because my parents didn’t really understand that, that desire, that—I studied first law, but I always kept in law that I wanted to do cinema. I wanted to do documentaries. I wanted to write dramas. And that was really my main desire, my deepest desire.
Aaron: Did you have filmmakers whose work you were, like, “This is the kind of stuff I want to do.” Because at the time, like, this kind of long-form documentary series—there weren’t a ton of them out there. Someone camping out in a courtroom for years filming. What were your inspirations as you launched a documentary career?
Jean-Xavier: Well, in France, we have a very, very talented documentary filmmaker. His name is Raymond Depardon. And it’s cinema variety. At some point, he tried to put his camera inside a courtroom. He did one or two films about the, the system, the justice system in France, and that was very inspiring. And in the U.S., you have Wiseman, and I have watched all Wiseman movies. And that was also very, very inspiring.
Aaron: So at the front end of these 22 months, you’re in Durham, North Carolina, very specific region of America. What did people make of a Frenchman with a camera crew pushing its way into the courtroom each morning, interviewing people in the community? How did people receive you?
Jean-Xavier: That was very interesting, because in 2002, 2003, that was, that was the beginning of the Iraqi war. And if you remember, at the time the fries—you, you are going to a restaurant, there was always French fries.
Aaron: Freedom fries.
Jean-Xavier: Yes. And it becomes freedom fries, because the French people were not, were not with, with the Bush administration going to war against Iraq. And so people were quite open—but they was looking at us, actually, in a way—not so friendly. But mainly, it was a surprise—why are you staying there? Why—you have no life? And—but the, the judge had been very, very open to us and, and, and very nice, because he allowed us really to, to shoot exactly like I, I had in mind, where I wanted to put the three cameras, I wanted inside the courtroom. He allowed us to, to do that and that was really a key factor in the way we, we shoot the trial. That’s the—that was very important.
Aaron: This story has multiple giant twists in it. I think probably the biggest one for me was the, the revelation of this other woman who had died after falling down the stairs. I wonder if you could tell me emotionally for you, when this project that, as you said, was supposed to be six months long, when a giant, giant twist comes in like that, that is going to totally change the trial and the story you’re telling—how did that feel for you as the filmmaker. Are you excited? Are you dreading how much longer you’re going to have to film?
Jean-Xavier: Both, exactly. We—when we start shooting, obviously we had no clue about what will happen and especially about the death of Elizabeth Ratliff in Germany 17 years ago. We didn’t know, in fact, we learned about that with the prosecution. Because at the beginning, my goal was to shoot—I didn’t really wanted to do a, a documentary film about—only about a defense system or the defense lawyers. I really wanted to, to look at the case the way the justice system will treat Michael Peterson. And so tried to shoot with the, the defense attorney crew, with Freda Black, and, and—which was a very good character.
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Jean-Xavier: Jim Hardin, the, the DA [phonetic 00:14:33] and at the beginning, they allowed us to shoot and to work with them. And at some point, because they really wanted us to know, to believe that Michael Peterson was guilty, they, they said to us, “But you don't know about the death of Elizabeth Ratliff.” I said, “But Elizabeth Ratliff—was that the mom of Martha and Margaret?” “Yes, the mom of Martha and Margaret. Do, do you know how she died?” “No, I don’t know, but I’m sure you are going to tell me,” and that would be interesting. And that’s the way we, we learn. Obviously, they change all the perspective of the documentary. I knew at that point that I couldn’t tell the story in two hours. I knew that we had to create a new format, to invent a new format, but not only a two-hour documentary.
Aaron: What has it been like in the years since the original episodes came out, seeing—particularly in the last few years, this boom in true crime storytelling, which often takes the format that you pioneered with The Staircase, of the, sort of, multiple episode? There’s something that you don't know at the beginning that’s really going to change your views midway.
Jean-Xavier: Well, to tell you the truth, when we came back to HBO at the end of the shooting and we told them—I—we can’t do a two-hour documentary. It has to be a eight-hours documentary film. And, and at the time, Sheila Nevins, with the other documentary—and in HBO, wow, she said, “No way, no way, it’s impossible. No, you have to tell the story in two hours. I’m sure you can do it.” And then I told her, “Yes, of course, you always can cut, but you can’t imagine what we have. And we need to do it in eight hours. That’s the right format.” And, and HBO said no, “No, no, no way.” And so we, we have to withdraw with—from HBO, to find other support and, and that was a very risky path to say no to HBO.
Aaron: Well, there weren’t a lot of other alternatives at the time, I would think.
Jean-Xavier: Exactly.
Aaron: Like, there weren’t the 19 streaming services that you can go to.
Jean-Xavier: Exactly, exactly. And that was quite difficult. And we put our own little production in risk. But I knew, I was totally convinced that there was only one way to tell that story. And we will convince many broadcaster all around the world to buy the eight hours documentary and to run it in, in that format. And thanks—I don't know who, but thanks—we succeed. Today, it’s more easier to find a place where—to, to sell this kind of long-term documentary series. I’m quite happy to be able to watch Making A Murderer, to watch The Jinx, to watch The Keepers. Of course, the huge difference—because it’s very difficult to do a good series, a good documentary series, because as I said, when you start filming, you don't know what will happen. And you never can be really sure that you will get all the material to do a six hours, eight hours or 10 hours documentary series. And if you, if you take Making A Murderer, in fact, the two filmmakers, they start shooting, shooting, shooting during months, months and years before going to Netflix and saying, “Well, I think we have a very good show. And I know to shape a documentary series like a drama, that’s, I think, it’s good, it’s very exciting and when we start—when we cut Staircase, it was really, really exciting to do it as a drama. But we really had the material to do it, and to stay really in the rules of a documentary film. That, of course, you are not staging anything, you are shooting what is in front of your camera, and that’s very important. You always have to keep that in mind. It’s cinema documentary, and the beauty of the documentary, it’s because you are capturing the life.
Aaron: That sort of isolation and not wanting to affect the film that’s happening in front of you must have gotten more difficult as you became more and more intimate with David Rudolf and Michael Peterson. I mean, these are people that you’ve now known for a—going on 15, 20 years now. How did making films, particularly as you came back to the film now—now that these people are a big part of your life, a big part of your career, was there additional challenges and feeling like, oh, I’m not staging this or I’m not influencing it, simply by being here?
Jean-Xavier: Yes, very good question. Because the main question about documentary is the point of view and the distance you keep between you, filmmaker, and the subject. And you have always—keep the right distance. And, yeah, during the last five years of shooting, I have to say with Michael Peterson, with David Rudolf, it has been more and more difficult to keep the right distance, because of course, as you said, in a way we were friends. And it was really difficult to tell them, “Okay, you are seeing me as a friend, but I also have a film to do. And if I really want to shoot and to do a good film, I have to keep the right distance. And I can’t be your friend.” Or, I may be your friend, but I have always to keep in mind that when I’m doing an interview of Michael Peterson, that that guy who is in front of me may have killed his wife. And I don't know that, but I have always—to keep that in my mind until the end. Because that distance, as I said, is really, really, really important, and to stay at the right distance during 15 years, it’s—it has been quite difficult.
Aaron: Did, did the fact that the case had become famous make it different when you returned to film in these—in the courtroom during Peterson’s Alford plea? Like, I was—I’m an American, and I was unaware of this case when it was happening the first time, different part of the country, never had heard of Michael Peterson’s book. Now, because of the success of the original Staircase, this is a big case that people are interested in, the media is interested in it, it’s a big deal, it seems like, for the local prosecutors in Durham, like, this is their famous case. How did that change your filmmaking as you returned to the story?
Jean-Xavier: Well, of course, and when we came back in December 2011, we were surprised because in a way, now we were part of the story. We were not just watching the story, filming the story, but we were in the story too. That’s why Candace, Kathleen sister, when—at, at the last hearing when she, she, she spoke about, about the film, about the documentary film, about us, about the, the way we supposedly have treated her, and of course, I, I kept that testimony in the film, because that was important.
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Aaron: How do you feel when—I’m assuming this happens—people approach you and want to discuss whether Michael Peterson is guilty or not, or want to discuss some of the theories that are popular on the internet? I think the owl theory has probably been the most viral. What’s it like for you, not with a camera running, but just in your day-to-day life, when people have seen The Staircase and want to talk about the guilt or innocence of its main character with the person who spent many years with him?
Jean-Xavier: Maybe—I have heard the question, “What do you think? What do you really believe? What is your deep conviction about the case, about Michael Peterson?” I’ve heard that question maybe 500 times. Because—no, because of course, and I can understand—I spend 15 years and more than 15 years, we’ve—in a way, with Michael Peterson. Not, of course, every day, but in my mind, I spend 15 years with him. And during the—maybe the first eight years of the case, I don't remember a day where I didn’t ask myself that question. Why do I know, why do I feel, why do I believe? And I became really obsessed by what happened at night, what happened to Kathleen Peterson? It’s really a mystery, but I really want to understand. I really want to know. And I’m sure I will know what happened. But I didn’t know. I don't know. And I have to live with that. And that’s, sort of, the beauty of life, that sometimes there are still mysteries and you don't know. So I’m not sure that I know more today than I knew the first day I met him. Of course, I will feel more comfortable if he is innocent, because we spent so many hours, so many days, so many weeks together and I never really got the feeling that he could have killed Kathleen. Because if it’s a murder, it’s really a barbaric murder. It’s not just you push someone in the stairs. No, you beat someone until the death. But again, I was not there that night and it’s really difficult to know someone very well.
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Aaron: You described Murder on a Sunday Morning as getting lucky, in a way, or, like, lightning striking. And clearly, you got lucky again with The Staircase, and getting a story that could extend over a decade. What are you doing now? Are you looking for another—a third, a third lightning strike or…?
Jean-Xavier: Well, if I—to tell you really what happened, after the end of—the first eight hours of Staircase, in 2005, when I really said I finished the first eight hours of Staircase, I’m done with documentaries, I am done. I, I can’t do it anymore, because it’s too stressful, it’s too—it’s been really difficult. And so I move to drama, I wrote scripts and I shot different drama for the, the theater and the feature film, and drama for television. But in the last two years, I said to myself, okay, maybe it’s time to go back and to look at maybe another story. But not as a director, but maybe as an executive producer. And we try to find a story in Boston, we start shooting two years ago. And nothing—what we were expecting happened. Nothing at all.
Aaron: For you, this is—there’s been part—the first eight hours of The Staircase, and then you did the first update and now the final update, in which Michael Peterson is now out of jail, which I would think means that was the last one, unless—I mean, never say never, I guess with a story like this. But assuming that you are done with The Staircase, how is it to say goodbye to this? Is it still something you think about? Do you stay in touch with any of the people?
Jean-Xavier: Yes, yes, of course. I stay in contact with, with David Rudolf, I’ve seen him three times since we—since last July, in fact. And I kept in touch with Michael Peterson. He’s still living in Durham, in the same apartment. The last day of shooting, I knew that was the last day of shooting, and of course that was mixed feeling there. That was a feeling of relief, huge relief, because I felt I was tied to, to the case, I was tied to these characters. I knew I had to do it. The fact that it was finished, it was a huge relief. But so, there was kind of sadness too, because I didn’t know—well, I knew—maybe I will never see again Michael Peterson or the people—that was a kind of really—joyful and sad moment, of course. But again, huge relief.
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Rae: And that’s it for this week’s episode. We’ll be back next month with a new series or film for you to add to your watch list. You can find this show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Google Play, Spotify and wherever else you get your podcasts. Make sure to subscribe, rate and review this show, that way you can help other people find it. You Can’t Make This Up is a production of Pineapple Street Media and Netflix. Our music is by Hansdale Hsu. I’m Rae Votta and thanks for listening.