Erin Gibson and Bryan Safi (Throwing Shade) take us deep down The Staircase rabbit hole. They debate Michael’s innocence, critique sexuality as evidence, put on their best Southern accents for Freda Black's iconic closing arguments, and so much more! The Staircase comes from Academy-Award winning Director Jean-Xavier de Lestrade. The docuseries about the mysterious death of North Carolina business executive, Kathleen Peterson and the trial of her husband Michael, comes to Netflix with 3 never-before-seen episodes. These new episodes bring a conclusion to the story told over 15 plus years. Warning, there are spoilers ahead! But lucky for you, The Staircase is available to watch on Netflix right now.
Erin Gibson and Bryan Safi (Throwing Shade) take us deep down The Staircase rabbit hole. They debate Michael’s innocence, critique sexuality as evidence, put on their best Southern accents for Freda Black's iconic closing arguments, and so much more!
The Staircase comes from Academy-Award winning Director Jean-Xavier de Lestrade. The docuseries about the mysterious death of North Carolina business executive, Kathleen Peterson and the trial of her husband Michael, comes to Netflix with 3 never-before-seen episodes. These new episodes bring a conclusion to the story told over 15 plus years. Warning, there are spoilers ahead! But lucky for you, The Staircase is available to watch on Netflix right now.
Colin: Welcome to You Can't Make This Up, a new companion podcast from Netflix.
[Music]
Colin: I'm Colin Fleming. I work at Netflix, and I'm your host for this week's episode. Every other week on You Can't Make This Up, we feature a new interview or discussing a different Netflix original series or film with special guests, and there's something every episode has in common: the stories we talk about are all true. This week is all about The Staircase, the new true crime docuseries from Netflix.
[Music]
Colin: The Staircase comes from Academy Award-winning director Jean-Xavier de Lestrade. The docuseries about the mysterious death of North Carolina business executive Kathleen Peterson and the trial of her husband Michael comes to Netflix with three never-before seen episodes. These new episodes bring a conclusion to a story told over 15-plus years. Here to talk about The Staircase, we're excited to have on Erin Gibson and Bryan Safi of the comedy duo Throwing Shade. They're going to discuss Michael's innocence, possible motives, and much, much more. So, stick around because here are Erin and Bryan.
Bryan: Hi, guys. I'm homosensual Bryan Safi.
Erin: And, I'm feminist Erin Gibson. We're so excited to talk to you today about The Staircase.
Bryan: Now, we host a podcast called Throwing Shade that looks at LGBT issues and women's issues and treats them with very little respect, so it makes that we're on a murder trial. They picked the right forensic—
Erin: People!
Bryan: …experts. We are soon to have a show on HLN right after this. I have no doubt about it.
Erin: Full disclosure, this is, kind of interesting that we're talking about it because I've seen the first half of The Staircase back in, God, when I was six, seven years old, 2002, 2003. And, you, this is the first time—
Bryan: I had just retired. And so—
Erin: From what?
Bryan: From—Well, I was a professional dancer for 45 years. So, I had just retired, and so, I had no time to see The Staircase because I was busy.
Erin: So busy, here, there.
Bryan: Yeah.
Erin: Baryshnikov.
Bryan: Snow globes. Yeah. But, I had never seen this. I will say, for those of you don't know, which I think is probably many of you, The Staircase is a 13-part documentary series that follows the indictment, trial, and conviction of Michael Peterson, who—let's face it—calls himself a crime author. I think his books are about—I think they're more pamphlets from what I could tell that he—His books are about 80 pages long.
Erin: Lifetime stories for men.
Bryan: Also, it's also weird when novels are cowritten, and a lot of his novels are, like, two writers.
Erin: But, they are with journalists. So, he was, like, the fiction guy, and they were, like, the facts guy. And together, they came together to put together books.
Bryan: I don't know. I mean, listen, if I'm going to—
Erin: Have you, did you read any of them?
Bryan: No.
Erin: So, you're judging by the cover?
Bryan: I'm judging by the cover and the length, which was, like, a beach read that you'd never actually want to be on the beach reading. To me, it's a prison read. So—
Erin: Well, ironic that he would be writing these.
Bryan: So, Michael Peterson, yeah, was—
Erin: Convicted.
Bryan: …convicted for the death of his wife, Kathleen. The documentary follows all of this from the very beginning to the very end.
Erin: She was found dead on her staircase in their home, which, Bryan, you know what staircases are used for, not for murder.
Bryan: No, for promenading down and greeting your guests. I don't have a staircase. I wish I did though because I really would—
Erin: It sounds like they're dangerous.
Bryan: It's for someone else to open the door and for you to cascade down in a huge ballgown.
Erin: Lengthy, lengthy train.
Bryan: Exactly.
Erin: Yeah.
Bryan: And so, anyway, yes. Kathleen was found dead at the bottom of the staircase in their North Carolina mansion. Michael Peterson was the only person in the home at the time, and so—
Erin: Well, there were dogs there, who were never, ever questioned.
Bryan: No.
Erin: We don't know their involvement in this.
Bryan: No. They're English. They're too proper. They're English bulldogs.
Erin: Oh, that's why. They could barely breathe.
Bryan: That's right. So, this thing goes on and on and on, and the big twist in it, at one point, is that a family friend of his, 20 years before all this, was found dead at the bottom of a staircase with Peterson also being the only person in the house when this happened. And so, listen, the only law proceedings I ever really follow—and this is legitimate—is I watch Judge Judy every night.
Erin: So, you're an expert?
Bryan: Yeah.
Erin: So, there's a couple things you need to know about the night that this all happened in order to, kind of, get the sense of why there were questions about this. When you're watching the documentary, you need to know Michael Peterson is an avid, avid eyebrow cultivator.
Bryan: His eyebrows are so—
Erin: I'm not trying to look shame.
Bryan: …like, to the point where the defense team had to save it for the trial. "So, you got a good night sleep? You've got to trim those eyebrows, and we're good to go." Like, just like straight up threw it in there.
Erin: They are their own cartoon network.
Bryan: They really are.
Erin: Animated, expressive.
Bryan: If it were Max, if Max Fleischer had been alive during The Staircase, he would have gone from Betty Boop straight to Michael Peterson's eyebrows.
Erin: And, this is not mean that we—We'll get to whether or not we believe he's innocent or guilty.
Bryan: No.
Erin: This is just color for you to understand what you're seeing.
Bryan: I made love to someone with the reddest gums I've ever seen in my life.
Erin: So, Michael Peterson is—here are his titles—suspect, husband, veteran, author, father.
Bryan: I mean, we should say also that the movie was made by a French team, Jean-Xavier de Lestrade.
Erin: Beautiful, yeah.
Bryan: I've never done that accent. Who also had actually done another documentary that he won an Oscar for that also followed someone who was convicted of murder and then subsequently acquitted.
Erin: Really? He's also obsessed with long, ugly shots of American highways and small towns.
Bryan: And so, that's what also makes me think about coincidence. The question is whether he this or didn't do it, but to one or both of these women.
Erin: Can I say one more thing about Jean-Xavier de Lestrade?
Bryan: I wish you wouldn't.
Erin: His production company, get ready. I mean, honestly, skip the titles after you've watched the first one because you're not going to be able to get through the production company name, which is What's Up Films, which means either he's a huge Bugs Bunny fan or a Beastie Boys fan, and I cannot decide which one. What's Up Films, what's up, y'all? I'm Jean-Xavier de Lestrade.
Bryan: As a homosexual man, that's a big trigger. When people say what's up to me, I immediately am like—
Erin: You're like, "I'm about to gay back."
Bryan: …I step away.
Erin: So, Michael Peterson, as Bryan said, just him and his wife, Kathleen Peterson, who is an executive, a wife, a mother.
Bryan: Rich as shit. I mean, these people have the most, in Durham, have the most sprawl, Durham, North Carolina, South Carolina—who knows—has the most sprawling mansion you could ever imagine.
Erin: A pool. I mean, so much so that when this accident/attack, whatever, happens, he claims he can't hear them, which they then prove later that you can't hear a goddamn thing in the house.
Bryan: That's how huge the house is, that someone screaming "help, help, help" over for five minutes straight, you can't hear on the other end of the house.
Erin: Now, for the millennials and the Gen Z-ers who are binge watching this, who are Netflix and chilling, I just need you to know that when Michael starts telling you what happened that night, there's going to be some stuff you don't understand. Number one, they rented a movie from Blockbuster.
Bryan: Correction. He pronounced it Blockbusters.
Erin: Oh, sorry. They rented a movie from Blockbusters. That is a brick and mortar store that crushed Mom and Pop video stores, that in turn was crushed by Netflix.
Bryan: Yes.
Erin: Just so you know the chain of how that—So, essentially, instead of going to your TV and the internet bringing you a movie, you had to put your shoes on. You had to go to the store. You had to figure out which cover you liked. You had to come back home.
Bryan: Most disturbingly was they rented the worst Julia Roberts movie, In the Cannon, and I'm actually including I Love Trouble.
Erin: American Sweethearts. They go outside, sit by the pool. Kathleen goes indoors, and then, Michael finds her dead on the staircase.
Bryan: So, I will say that, in terms of a true—This was, I think, well before the true crime—
Erin: Serial and yeah.
Bryan: …boom, and it's, sort of, the first of its kind in that it follows every step the defense team makes in this. So, I will say they're not really following the prosecution, although more on them later, Freda Black—
Erin: Oh, we've got a lot.
Bryan: …for the win. And also, that other guy who reminds me of, like—I grew up in Texas. The main prosecutor is every—
Erin: James Harden, Jr.
Bryan: …high school coach. Yes. Ugh. Dies his hair, truly just such a monster. Anyway—
Erin: Oh, wait. Are you talking about the prosecution?
Bryan: Yes.
Erin: Oh, okay. Great. Right. Okay.
Bryan: So, this was, sort of, the first of its kind, and I think what does make it relevant now and what does make it stand out is that I think, really, is the amount of detail on this and not so much the amount of spin involved. They're really just showing you absolutely everything from beginning to end.
Erin: I have to say, when I saw the first time in 2005, 2006, whatever, I did not view the prosecution and the criminal investigative team on the state side as harshly as I do now when I re-watched it. Like, I really saw all the things they were doing wrong. First of all, in the first episode, Assistant DA Greg Meade, who is number two to the district attorney, James Harden, Jr., who, by the way, is now a superior court judge, who after the trial was honored by Lawyers Weekly USA, which what is that publication?
Bryan: I don't know. I mean, I subscribe to that and Better Homes and Gardens.
Erin: Oh, the two places you get all your news. And, was named one of America's top ten lawyers of 2003. When you think about this, after the fact, it's, kind of, grody that these guys, on both sides, built their careers off of this murder case, you know. That's how it works, but—
Bryan: I mean, they both did a terrific job. I mean, like, I think if you're on the prosecution, that's the guy you want, and, if you're on the defense, that's the guy you want.
Erin: Right. So, Assistant DA Greg Meade, who they're talking about—So, one of the cruxes, the things that people can't wrap their mind around with the way that Kathleen died, is that, when you look at the crime scene, it's like she fell down the stairs. But, the medical examiner found lacerations on her head.
Bryan: As if someone had beat over the head seven times with a blunt object.
Erin: Except, that there was no contusions. There were no skull fractures, and there was no bruising. So, imagine it's just her head was sliced open. So, Assistant DA Greg Meade starts laughing about the idea that she just fell down the stairs and says something to the effect of, "What? She just go down the stairs on her head like a pogo stick?", and then laughs. And, at that point, I'm like, "You lost me, dude." This is a woman who died. There's video, there's film cameras here, film cameras. It was the 2006s. What are you saying when they're not on? Like, that's ruthless to me to just sit there and laugh about the way a woman died.
Bryan: Well, I will say, in the prosecution's defense, that they shot, like, 600 hours of footage. I do think, at a certain point, investigating something like this over and over and over again, and it's so heavy and it's so dark, I, kind of, get it.
Erin: I don't know. I just think I now have a mistrust of the American legal system because—
Bryan: Now? This is what did it for you?
Erin: No, no, no, not now. I think because of a lot of the political turmoil and the stuff that's, kind of, coming out about the dirty shit that cops and prosecutors do, and the amount of fucking money. Michael Peterson would not have been able to afford this lawyer, afford this team. His team was massive. He had—
Bryan: I think it was in, and this was in 2000, what—
Erin: Six?
Bryan: …2001, 2002—
Erin: Oh, yeah, right.
Bryan: …that this happened. So, like, and, I think he spent around or over a million dollars on this. He says himself there's no way, and so, you have to take—This is a rich, white dude—And, I'll get into his sexuality in a minute because that played a major part in this. This is a rich, white dude who essentially the system always works for, and the only way that he could defend himself was by paying someone a million dollars. So, you let that trickle down into every disenfranchised person by class, by color, everything, and then see how the legal system works for you, when you have no money, when you are assigned something by the State, and when you are, you know—Essentially, what this also showed was—
Erin: Not to say that there's not people working for the State who are good lawyers.
Bryan: I don't care about them. I'm not defending the lawyers here, but I will say that, like, it takes a lot of money to mount a good defense on something you maybe didn't even do.
Erin: Well, okay. So, let me talk about his defense team. So, he has David S. Rudolf, who is his main guy, who has the audacity to dye his hair, but not his beard.
Bryan: I love—By the way, I ended up getting a huge crush on David Rudolf.
Erin: You did?
Bryan: Yeah.
Erin: I mean, well, by the way, his background is pretty impressive. He was a public defender in Brooklyn and then took a position in UNC teaching criminal law and then went into private practice after that. So, he spent a lot of his life really sticking up for people who didn't have someone on their side. So—
Bryan: And, what made me so mad, especially in this, was when his own team, his own defense team and Michael Peterson's brother, who is in this a lot—
Erin: Who is, like, basically a twin.
Bryan: Yeah, and who, honestly, I would want as my father, the calmest, sweetest man, but the only difference was his gums weren't white, was that—
Erin: Is that a deficiency, like a Vitamin C thing?
Bryan: No. I think it's the cigar smoke or the pipe smoking.
Erin: Oh, get ready to see a man who can't say one word without a cigar in his mouth.
Bryan: Well, but I do have to say there was something very—Because, he was killing it in this trial.
Erin: Funny. That's funny.
Bryan: Oh, yeah. He was murdering.
Erin: The only thing Michael Peterson is guilty of is killing it in the trial.
Bryan: Yes, honey.
Erin: Or are you talking about David?
Bryan: He lacerated this trial, and I was hit over the head by his moves. Listen. All I want—That's enough. All I want to say is that, at one point, his own team says, "I keep watching the jury, and they don't like you at all because they think you're an outsider and they think you're slick." And, in my head, that meant they think you're Jewish.
Erin: Wait. They think—
Bryan: I thought that was—
Erin: …that Michael Peterson?
Bryan: No. They think the lawyer, David Rudolf is—
Erin: Absolutely.
Bryan: I thought there was something very anti-Sematic about that actually.
Erin: Well, when David Rudolf has to go to Germany to investigate the first staircase murder—
Bryan: Yes, Elizabeth Ratliffe, yeah.
Erin: …the homicide by staircase. He says, he's like, "This is really eerie for me to be here because I think about what the Germans did to my people." Like, he is on alert for that kind of stuff.
Bryan: But, he didn't even notice it in the trial.
Erin: Oh, he didn't?
Bryan: No. It was his team who was like, "They clearly don't like you, and they look at you with mistrust," even though, again, he, like, bashed me over the head with his brilliance.
Erin: And, the same thing when he's watching Nancy Grace rehash the trial, I've never seen someone more, like, "I don't even understand where she's getting any of this."
Bryan: That was fascinating that they did watch Nancy Grace every night just to get an outside perspective.
Erin: I thought that was smart.
Bryan: It was smart.
Erin: So, here's how many people were on the defense team. David S. Rudolf, who spent a very long time really cementing that Bryan does want to have some kind of sexual relation with.
Bryan: You know what I want to have with him? A brandy.
Erin: Ron Guerette, who is an ex-homicide detective, and the defense's private investigator, who is straight out of the Harvey Korman rule book, just giving me full 1970s sitcom face. Dr. Werner Spitz, the forensic pathologist.
Bryan: Oh, with no molars. I loved him.
Erin: Fierce Werner Herzog competitor.
Bryan: Definitely. He had that Marlene Dietrich jawline. It was fabulous.
Erin: Okay. So, he worked—Let me tell you. This guy is expensive. He worked on investigations of the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King and was not convinced that Chris Cornell died of a suicide. So, he's got, he's like, it doesn't matter who it is. He's got his finger on the not pulses. He also was sued by Jon Benet Ramsey's brother—do you know this—who Sptiz accused of killing his sister, and in a Netflix full circle, full circle, he was the medical examiner for Sister Cathy Cesnik's death, the murder that the Netflix series The Keepers revolves around. So, this guy has got his finger in all the Netflix pies.
Bryan: I also have to say this is really, also, like, the thing I want to get to, that I would say everyone who I've ever known who has watched this documentary pre-20s—what are we in, 2014—pre-2014, thought he was guilty.
Erin: Me too.
Bryan: Every single person I know who watched this—
Erin: I thought he was guilty.
Bryan: …though he was guilty. There is a twist in this that should have just been a matter of fact, and I don't really know why this was entered into anything. But, it essentially got to I think why he was convicted, and it's that it was revealed that he's a bisexual and that he had had physical interactions with men, starting I think from when he was in the military when he served, and then post.
Erin: And, he served.
Bryan: Honey. And then, post all of that, and he had always said—and I believe him—that Kathleen, his wife, knew about this, that he had been seeing men on the side and that it was purely a sexual relationship and not an emotional relationship. This was a very, sort of, blended family, and I will say that Kathleen, the woman who fell down the stairs or was murdered or however you want to say it, she had one daughter that—
Erin: Her name is—
Bryan: Caitlin.
Erin: Oh, yeah, Caitlin, right. Her sister was Candace.
Bryan: Caitlin—
Erin: Too many—It's basically the Jenners.
Bryan: It really is. Immediately, Caitlin is on Michael's side, finds out about the bisexuality that they uncover, and immediately switches teams. That is what made her go to the other side, and that is what made the sisters, who also believed Michael at the beginning, and then, once they found out that he had been hooking up with men, it changed their minds and just kept talking about how nefarious it was and how dark this was and how no one knows who he actually is. And, if he's capable of sleeping with a man, he's capable of murdering two women.
Erin: Which is—The fact that his two daughters do ultimately support him through the trial—
Bryan: Yes, two other daughters. Yes.
Erin: Oh, his adoptive daughters, Margaret and Martha, who were—We should introduce this fact. Elizabeth Ratcliffe, who is the original staircase victim in Germany when Michael is young. He's got his two sons. They are friends of the family. She's found at the bottom of her staircase. He immediately adopts her two daughters. So—
Bryan: Right. What a nice guy.
Erin: …the fact that that wasn't, like, first and foremost, like, "Okay. How would, why would he adopt these children if he had murdered the first woman?"
Bryan: And, the first woman, again, there would have really been, there was no motive for that murder. If it had been him, there was really no motive for it. She didn't have any money. It wasn't anything like that. And, back to the bisexuality thing for a second, this was also in a year, so 2003, when this trial happened, was the year Lawrence v. Texas, when sodomy laws were finally struck down on the federal level, and the sodomy laws were still on the books in North Carolina until 2003, until this happened. So, you can imagine the environment in North Carolina when it deals to, I think specifically, if we're talking sodomy, men sleeping with other men was disgusting—
Erin: Scandalous, yeah.
Bryan: …scandalous and disgusting to everyone involved, including people close to him. So, the first thing I want to do, this is a clip from the, this is when the prosecution is before the judge, not the jury, but before the judge saying we want to enter the fact that he was a bisexual into this because it actually really does matter. So, we'll play that now.
[Clip plays]
Prosecutor: It does go to motive as to why this act may have been committed, and, number two, it goes specifically to rebut some issues that were raised in the defendant's opening statement, putting in information about the idyllic relationship that this couple had. Well, this does not jive with that kind of statement.
Judge: Why doesn't it jive?
Prosecutor: If it's an idyllic relationship, then why is he e-mailing somebody else to meet for sexual relations outside of the marriage? You know, you're talking about a potential love triangle type thing here, and I think, clearly, that's a motive for murder. If it's not a motive for murder, then the entire soap industry dies because that's what they base all their stories on.
Judge: That'd be okay. You're talking about specifically e-mails with the person that has been identified as Brad?
Prosecutor: That is correct.
Judge: Okay.
Prosecutor: Yes, sir.
Judge: Now, Mr. Maher [phonetic] [00:20:24] says there's no evidence that they actually had relations or that they actually met.
Prosecutor: I don't see anywhere in the law, either in the rules or in the case law, that says they actually have to meet for this to be a motive for murder.
[Clip ends]
Bryan: It's so insane that the fact that—I don't know.
Erin: Thin as fuck.
Bryan: Okay. I'm not a lawyer, but the fact that—I don't know. The fact that this guy—This is really just because—
Erin: They're playing on homophobia.
Bryan: …this guy e-mailed someone, e-mailed someone to have sex with him, with an escort, to have sex with him that there's no way that, if a man did that, he could have a good relationship with his wife, that there's no way that could happen. People write their own fucking rules, and, by the way, bisexuality did not come around in the last 10 years. It's not even seriously now. It's clearly something that has existed since the beginning of time, and also, having an idyllic relationship with someone means being able to be honest with someone and saying to that person, "I love you so much. You are my soulmate. I love our family. Sometimes, I need this other thing. Is that okay?" And, if she said yes, and I think she probably did, then—And, I don't think that being a bisexual and having an idyllic relationship are mutually exclusive.
Erin: I'll tell you. There's a difference, I think, watching this documentary when you see Michael Peterson's reactions to things and the way that he is in the courtroom and him trying to, like, choke back tears, I felt like this is a guy who is from another generation who had a lot of obstacles in his way, as far as, like, being sexually honest with himself, and I don't think with his wife, but I think—Like, he, this guy is struggling with a lot, and that, I think, comes out to people as, like, "Oh, he's being weird," or, "Oh, he's being creepy." It's, like, he's been leading, like, a secretive life for a long time.
Bryan: But, I don't know that he was. I don't know that he was dishonest about anything. I think he legitimately loved his wife.
Erin: Well, his children didn't know.
Bryan: Why would you tell your children about your sex life?
Erin: I tell my children—I sit my children down every day. I say, "Daddy and I did this last night. Daddy and I did that last night."
Bryan: I mean, yes, it was a different time, but I don't know that he was in sorrow or pain because he wasn't hooking up more.
Erin: No, no, no. That's not what I'm saying.
Bryan: It didn't seem to be available to him. Okay.
Erin: I'm saying that, like, I think that some of his actions and some of his—not his actions—but I think some of his reactions in court and the way that he is as a person might be somehow a little bit tangled up with this, like, he couldn't really be who he is to the world. You know what I mean? And so, like, there was some secrecy and stuff there, and then, that ended up haunting him or coming back—
Bryan: Right, because it made him seem diabolical.
Erin: Yes, exactly. But, like, if I was on trial for something, people, the shit that people could us—you were saying this earlier—dig up on me about me, there are jokes we make on the podcast about, like, all the things that I jerk off with or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, they could, it would be like, "Well, you're a monster."
Bryan: Oh. I think about it all the time. Like, every—Exactly. Everything we've said on the podcast Throwing Shade, which is available everywhere, everything we've said on the podcast, everything that I've said on a dating app, everything that I've said—And, by the way, they're not even bad things, but they are sexual things. So, then, I don't know. Then, bring all this up, and they dig through his computer to find pornography and show, which some of the pornography is showing obviously men having sex with men, just to show, and it's just to show—and the judge admits this, you know, let's them admit this in court—it's just to show that this guy liked hardcore porn, which we're going to get to because Freda Black, who is on the prosecution team, who is truly iconic—And, I want to talk about her more after the clip.
Erin: I'm talking about somebody who uses a very thin-tooth comb, who every hair is in place, consistent lipstick colors, the whole thing.
Bryan: Totally. A very effective prosecutor, a, kind of, a badass actually.
Erin: If Cate Blanchett ever wanted to retire, I see her going right into that cog, in that position.
Bryan: See, I see Laura Dern. I kept casting her because Laura Dern did that brilliant job in Recount of playing Katherine Harris, or whatever, from Florida. Okay. So, the next clip I'm going to play is they actually bring the escort. They out this escort, who really wanted nothing to do with this. I think his name is Top Soldier, is his screen name or his website.
Erin: Would that be, like, a hot thing on Grindr if you were Top Soldier?
Bryan: Sure.
Erin: Okay.
Bryan: Yeah. All right. Let's play the escort's testimony because I thought it was fantastic, and he made everyone laugh.
[Clip plays]
Attorney: In regard to the kinds of men that you tended to have escort relationships with, can you give us some indication of their professions, for example?
Escort: Sure. Usually, they are professionals because my fees were quite high. I saw doctors, attorneys, one judge.
[Laughter]
Bryan: Freda can't stop laughing.
Escort: It was not this judge.
[Laughter]
Erin: Calm down.
Judge: I think we can stipulate to that.
Attorney: Is it fair to say that the men who you would see were bisexual, as opposed to being homosexual?
Escort: In my opinion, I would go so far as to even say that they were predominantly straight with minor homosexual tendencies.
Attorney: All right. And, did a number of the married men who you had sexual relations with have wives who knew they were bisexual?
Escort: Most of them did, from my experience.
Attorney: In your experience, was it unusual for a wife married to a bisexual man to know that he was bisexual?
Escort: Not at all.
Attorney: Did Michael Peterson ever do or say anything, either on the phone or in an e-mail that indicated that he was not in love with Kathleen Peterson?
Escort: To the contrary. In his e-mails, unlike most of my clients, he indicated that he had a great relationship. Most clients don't want to say anything about their relationship. He indicated he had a warm relationship with his wife and nothing would ever destroy that.
[Clip ends]
Bryan: Yeah. There you go. I mean, so, I think—
Erin: That's case closed, as far as I'm concerned.
Bryan: Me too. I feel like that speaks to the crux of it. It seems like the crux of the trial becomes if he's hiding—
Erin: Were they having—
Bryan: …this, what else is he hiding. The only thing that sticks out in my head of, like, that is a weird fucking coincidence, that you were alone with two women who fell down the fucking stairs.
Erin: Here's the thing, and I think this is what you should take away from this. And, we've got more to talk about, but buy a one-story house. Do not buy—
Bryan: Don't watch American Sweethearts.
Erin: Carpet your stairs.
Bryan: Stop calling it Blockbusters. The last clip I want to play that ties into this bisexuality thing is in the closing argument, and this is where Freda Black shines. It's a long clip, but I promise it's all very worth it. This is in her closing argument, and, again, what they keep coming back to is this had to have been an issue of him being a complete and total pervert. Otherwise, like, what the fuck are we doing here? So, let's listen to—And then, the after of Freda Black is pretty much one of the saddest downfalls I ever have hear, and I want to explain that after the clip. Anyway, here is Freda Black in her closing arguments, and this is, by the way, if you are an actress—
Erin: Take note.
Bryan: …memorize this for your next audition.
Erin: If you're auditioning for Tish—
Bryan: I don't care what you're auditioning for.
Erin: …this will get you right in.
Bryan: Absolutely. If you're a community theatre performer, get this routine down.
Erin: Do you have it written so you can perform it?
Bryan: No. I'm going to though. I'm going to write it down.
Erin: Okay.
Bryan: Yeah. Here we go. Here's Freda Black closing arguments.
Erin: Action.
[Clip plays]
Freda: We're dealing with a fictional write. Some people even say he's a good fictional writer. He is a person who knows how to create a fictional plot, and then, there's Brad.
Bryan: Brad's the escort.
Freda: Do you really believe that Kathleen knew that Mr. Peterson was bisexual? Does that make common sense to you that it was okay with her to go to work while he stayed at home and communicated by e-mail and telephone with people he was planning on having sex with? And, this isn't just a computer relationship. I asked Brad what they were going to do. He told you. And, I don't mean to offend anybody, but he did say they were going to have anal sex. The only reason that meeting didn't take place was because of Brad. It wasn't because of Mr. Peterson. He was fired up and ready to go. And, you honestly believe that Kathleen Peterson knew about that, would have approved of that? And, it wasn't just Brad. You saw the rest of the things on his computer. Once again, these things were so filthy we can't even show them on TV. Filth, pure tee filth.
Bryan: Pure tee filth. Get it, Freda.
Erin: What's pure tee?
Bryan: It's a Southern expression.
Freda: This is just any which way. This is called hardcore porn. Do you think she approved of this type of activity while she's off at work or sleeping? I argue to you that doesn't make sense, and that's not the way that soulmates conduct themselves. That is not.
[Clip ends]
Erin: Wait. I just came to a conclusion that could have busted this whole case wide open.
Bryan: You're on her side and you think he's guilty?
Erin: First of all, I've never—I grew up in Texas. I've never heard the phrase pure—
Bryan: Pure tee, my grandparents said it all the time.
Erin: Pure tee filth?
Bryan: Yeah.
Erin: Pure tee?
Bryan: Pure tee trash. Pure tee filth.
Erin: Oh, I love it. Okay. Now, here is how you could have blown the case wide open, and I just thought of this. When she says "do you think that she would have been okay with him going off and having sexual liaisons with other people," let me tell you something. I'm in a very happy relationship. I love my husband. I love having sex with my husband.
Bryan: To be honest with you, usually people who have to say that—
Erin: Don't? Okay. Sorry. I hate my husband. I cannot keep up with the male sex drive. I'm just starting my ballet career.
Bryan: I can't keep up with it.
Erin: If I knew that my husband could go off and have sex with other people and was okay with it—
Bryan: Wouldn't you be relieved?
Erin: …I would be like, "Go. I have books to read." I don't want to sound like an old lady.
Bryan: I totally agree.
Erin: But, like, do you think I would be okay with that? I fucking endorse it. I encourage it.
Bryan: And, I also think that—I do think that he and Kathleen had a very loving relationship. I think she was a wonderful—We never really talked about her? I think she must have been a wonderful person because all those adopted children, later in their lives, they all called her mom. I think she was an exceptional person.
Erin: That must break their heart that their stepsister, or half-sister or whatever she's called—
Bryan: Yes, right after the bisexual thing and same with the sisters. And, this is what I also want to poke some hole in Freda's arguments. I love when she says pure tee filth. I love when she shows them pictures and says, "This is hardcore porn." Her assumptions are so wild. The first that he is a writer, so he's a liar and could be a murderer because he's an artist. So, if you happen to be in the arts at all, by the way, you probably are a liar—
Erin: It sounds like—
Bryan: …but you're not a murderer.
Erin: …Berlin pre-Nazis.
Bryan: Absolutely. And then, the second thing she says is that there's no way that you can be a soulmate and desire someone else, so that must make you a murderer.
Erin: Also, what a weird prison to put yourself in to never, like, look at someone and be like, "They're not hot because I'm in a relationship."
Bryan: And, the third thing she says is, if you keep hardcore porn on your computer—Which again, this was not illegal pornography. This was just really, I think, yeah, gay male pornography—that you're capable of anything, including murder. That is what is so fucking scary about this whole thing is that, again, literally, go through my computer, and I guess that, in some states—hopefully, not California, but who fucking knows—in some states, you would be looked at as the most disgusting person alive, capable of anything. Oh, I wanted to mention one more thing about Freda before we—
Erin: We close the book on the Freda. Oh, yeah. You didn't tell us how it all went down.
Bryan: So, Freda ended up running for District Attorney a few times. She didn't win. Then, she ended up with two DWIs and was last seen working at a dry cleaners in Durham called Durham Cleaners.
Erin: That is—
Bryan: That is the—Listen.
Erin: I don't agree with her—
Bryan: The Freda Black movie belongs to me, and, by the way, in it, she's a hero and a villain, like, maybe, Michael Peterson. Those are the most interesting people. The most interesting people are people who have maybe murdered.
Erin: Okay. One of the most interesting people is this straight-up homophobe, and the other one is the person at the—
Bryan: Sometimes, I hate myself. I do wonder, like, because, again, I just want to go back to the thing of, like, I am 95 percent sure he did not do this, but there is five percent of me that really—and this is so Durham of me—but there is five percent of me that thinks, like, how could this have happened twice?
Erin: Okay. Well, I don't know. Again, don't live in multi-level homes, but listen.
Bryan: In any country.
Erin: In any country. I think, okay, so, it's interesting.
Bryan: What is your takeaways?
Erin: The first half of the movie is, essentially, the one that I had seen in the early 2000s.
Bryan: The first, like, eight episodes.
Erin: And then, the next, or his release and retrial and then, kind of, the conclusion of that, which I think there's a really interesting episode in there where he talks very bluntly about the bisexuality and his thoughts on it. I think he's a really smart man. He's a war veteran. I'm sure there's some stuff going on there. None of his life, nothing in his life, to me, points to the fact that he could take his wife's life, and it's hard for me too with people who have been through war. Like, I don't know. My dad's a Vietnam vet, and I kept thinking of him during the whole thing. And, I just kept thinking, like, my dad has seen some shit. My dad still has shrapnel in his knee. My dad has been through it. I just think, after you've seen something like that and that kind of carnage and sadness, I just don't know how you could do it yourself. I don't know. I just don't believe that, you know.
Bryan: Yeah. Erin, I just got chills. My take—
Erin: Oh, because it's cold in here?
Bryan: Oh, yeah. It's freezing. My ultimate takeaway about it is—And, I'm not through the whole thing. I really just watched the main trial—is that this is only following the defense and that team. This is also before a bells and whistles style of doing something. There is not a score. There is not anything flashing in front of you. It's really—
Erin: If you live in California and you have access to a weed license, maybe you do some of that to get through some of the episodes.
Bryan: Truly the last thing I would do.
Erin: Oh, drink week lemonade and then watch a murder doc?
Bryan: Yes. So, it is a very basic documentary with a ton of footage. So, I would say, like, if you're looking for this, sort of, razzle dazzle of the musical Chicago, it's not here.
Erin: The takeaway is don't live in a double-story house.
Bryan: Yes.
Erin: It's not Chicago.
Bryan: It's not. You're not watching a musical.
Erin: Homophobia was alive and well.
Bryan: Alive and well, and biphobia is still alive and well.
Erin: And, if you want—
Bryan: And, yeah. If you want to get off of fucking—It's not even. If you want to have a fair trial, you better be a fucking millionaire because the system works against you.
Erin: Absolutely. And, if you are in a relationship with anybody, you have them, right away, write a letter saying, "My spouse, my partner did not and will not murder me."
[Music]
Colin: That was Erin Gibson and Bryan Safi of the comedy duo Throwing Shade. You can find new episodes of their podcast, Throwing Shade, every Thursday on Apple podcasts. Erin's new book, Feminasty: The Complicated Woman's Guide to Surviving the Patriarchy Without Drinking Herself to Death, is available for preorder now. And now, let's hear your reactions to The Staircase.
Female: This tweet is from @markduplass [phonetic] [00:35:46]. Well, clear your weekend. The Staircase is on Netflix. This is hands down the wildest, most fascinating true crime series I have ever seen. Do not Google anything. Just watch. Thank me later.
Colin: @ritabites [phonetic] [00:35:59]. The best part of The Staircase is the fucked up PowerPoint presentation rehearsal.
Male: From bobkellyxyz, I'm two minutes into that Netflix The Staircase and already call bull shit on this guy. No way could anyone talk to their wife for two hours about American Sweethearts.
Female: From @katerinajensen7, woke up early on my day off, and now, I can't get back to sleep because all I can think about is watching The Staircase. This is my Christmas, people.
Colin: Tell us your thoughts about upcoming shows. Find us on Twitter @CantMakeThisUp or on Facebook at You Can't Make This Up Netflix. Before we go, it's time for Watcha Watching, the part of You Can't Make This Up where we find out what the people in this episode have been tuning into later.
Bryan: Erin, what are you watching right now?
Erin: Well, I've already watched Wild, Wild Country, which loved.
Bryan: It's amazing. By the way, I also want the rights to Sheila, along with Freda. I want to write the Sheila movie.
Erin: Maybe you should put them in the same movie.
Bryan: Yeah, anyway.
Erin: I also loved the series Babylon Berlin. It's a show about Berlin before the Nazis. Also, the opening credits are the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life.
Bryan: Also, I will say Ibiza, directed by Alex Richanbach, written by Lauryn Kahn, starring Vanessa Bayer in one of the funniest performances I've ever seen.
Erin: I mean, she's amazing in it.
Bryan: As is Phoebe Robinson, as is Gillian Jacobs. So, I'm watching that stuff.
Colin: And, that's it for this week's episode. We'll be back in two weeks with part two of our Vox Explained series. You can find this show on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, Google Place, Spotify, or anywhere else you get your podcasts. Subscribe, rate, review our show. Tell the world what you love about You Can't Make This Up. Our music is by Hansdale Hsu. I'm Colin Fleming. Thanks for listening.