We have hosts Kevin Flynn and Rebecca Lavoie (of the Crime Writers On...podcast) to speak directors Robert Kenner (Food Inc.) and Taki Oldham about their new series The Confession Killer. They'll be deep diving the story of Henry Lee Lucas, a man who confessed to hundreds of murders that spanned the country.
Melissa: Welcome to You Can't Make This Up, a companion podcast from Netflix.
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Melissa: I'm Melissa Slaughter and here on You Can't Make This Up we go behind the scenes of the Netflix original True Crime Stories with special guests Kevin Flynn and Rebecca Lavoie, hosts of the podcast Crime Writers On return to speak to the directors of the new series, The Confession Killer. Robert Kenner, award-winning director of the documentary Food, Inc. and Australian director, Taki Oldham, partnered up to delve into the story of Henry Lee Lucas, a man who confessed to hundreds of murders that spanned across the country.In this interview they'll cover the key players in this story, like the Texas Rangers Captain Bob Prince and Sheriff Jim Boutwell, Jail Minister Clemmie Schroeder, journalist Hugh Aynesworth and lawyer cum politician Vick Feazell. There's a lot to cover, so make sure you've watched all of The Confession Killer.Now, here's Rebecca, Kevin, Robby and Taki.
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Kevin: Robby Kenner, you're the director. Taki Oldham, you are the co-director. Robby, you've done many documentaries, but you haven't done crime until now, right?
Robert: That's correct.
Kevin: What drew you to this story?
Robert: It's an amazing story. Actually, Taki came and had been researching this story for about two years.And it was just – the minute we heard it we said, "We have to go shoot." This is an incredible, jaw-dropping story. Taki had done an amazing amount of research and lined up a lot of people and it was extraordinary.
But, you know, there are similarities with this series to past films, even though they're totally different subjects. Because it's ultimately looking at a system that ultimately went askew. So, on one hand, it's a series about a serial murderer, but it's also really about a system and it's really also about how people looked at this man that was thought to be the worst serial killer in all of history and saw what they wanted from him.And I thought that was just a fascinating story to jump in and film.
Kevin: And Taki, so I guess you're the one that this idea originates with.What about this story, you know, turned you on?
Taki: Well, I just happened across a documentary from the early 2000's that was looking at the Lucas cases. And at the end they posed the question, if Lucas didn't kill all these 200-odd people, who did? Which was a very interesting question. A very serious question.
And, given that 15 years had passed and DNA had kind of come into the equation in the interim between this thing being made and me seeing this program, I was able to jump on and start putting in a few names of cases and pretty quickly found that a number of these cases had been solved through DNA and it was not Lucas. And so it suddenly – what had been a kind of a historical story had a whole new chapter that had the potential to be written.
Kevin: I think the archival footage is really important. I mean, you didn't choose to tell this with a bunch of reenactments or an overuse of drone shots over the city. There was one [unintelligible 0:03:25] in episode five.But you just have, I mean primarily the, the prime rib good piece of meat here, which is all the archival footage.How'd you get a hold of it. Were you surprised of what you had when you got those films?
Richard: We were actually in the offices of Vick Feazell, who's one of our main characters. And he had just a whole bunch of videotapes in his office that we did not know what they were. And amongst those was twenty-odd hours of footage, raw footage, from a documentary that we'd never seen before. And that was – opened up a whole new world for us. And it's as if we were there at the time in the early '80s, transporting back – and this is footage that people in America had never seen before. So, that was incredible for us.
Vick: I was able to bring in a Japanese film crew and Sheriff Boutwell thought that was exciting. "They're from Japan. My goodness.Of course we'll take the day and we'll show them a good time."
Richard: What's really amazing about the story is that this was a key moment in so many people's lives. And they all saved everything that had to do with their interactions with Henry.
So, it's funny, I've done films about war and it's, like, the most amazing moment in the soldiers' lives and they never really quite ever get over it. But there's certain similarities with this story where – from the Rangers to the D.A.s who thought Henry was interesting to a journalist to a reporter. They all found this the most amazing story they ever were involved and every one of them tended to save every piece of scrap and every archival piece of information.
And we were able to ultimate start to dig this up.And Taki was able to sort of dig and dig, and then found warehouses of sort of old confession tapes that were quite extraordinary. So, we have hundreds and hundreds of hours of all the confession tapes of Henry Lee Lucas that showed stories that were quite incredible and I think will make the audiences' jaws drop as they start to watch them.
Kevin: Yeah, I was going to say, all of your B rolls of people going through big boxes of stuff set aside, not just the one manila folder, but a lot, a lot of research. I do want to ask a little more about Vick in a minute. But let's look at some of the characters, supporting characters here, that you had and are important to the main story. I'm thinking of Bob Prince who was the Ranger who was on this task force.He did talk to you. Tell us what your impressions of him are.
Richard: Well, first of all, when we went to Texas for the first trip, we hadn't really connected with the Rangers yet. And we thought it would be, obviously, a story you want to tell from all sides. And we contacted Bob and he was ready to speak with us, which meant a lot. And he allowed us to come out to his house outside of Dallas and we spend a fair amount of time. And it was just very important to understand the story from the way he would want to tell it, as well as the way people who saw things very differently would want to tell it.
And at one point we said, you know, "Bob, you might want to come back to California because there are times were we think, you know, you're not coming off as sympathetically as you might want to, but we need your help. You need to come back." And he was gracious enough to come back.
Rebecca: That's unusual. Very often if you were to tell a source that they would say, you know, "Forget it, I'm done." Or, you know, they would try to assert some control. But, as we always tell people, you know, when we were writing true crime books and so forth, if you don't participate we will just take what's in the public domain available about you and put it in there, so it's better to get that point of view.
Richard: I thought it was essential. After the second interview, which actually he was much more sympathetic, I think he thought we were being very hard on him. And we then made contact and talked on the phone and, again, I appreciated that he was ready to talk. And I explained my point of view and he explained his, and we're still in communication.
Rebecca: I'm really interested in Clemmie, the prison pastor, who we meet in Episode One. You know, her initial take seems to be, when she meets Henry, that he's changing. That he wants to be better. And they seemed to form this, like, instant connection. And, of course, we see his art work and how he's really it seems, like, developing one of the first, like, truly very human untainted relationships of his life with this woman, Clemmie. And, you know, we see her in the present day which, again, is amazing. It's amazing to see all these archival tapes and then you cut right to the person today. It's truly incredible.
But what's your take on her? Did she believe the confessions when they were happening? Did she think the man that she had grown to know and love had done all these things and was trying to absolve himself? Or did she doubt the veracity of some of this stuff?That wasn't a hundred-percent clear to me, because she's so kind. She mostly just talked about him the person and not the alleged acts that he was confessing to.
Taki: Yes, 100 percent she believed that Henry had killed all those people.
Rebecca: Wow.
Taki: I mean what's interesting about her story and obviously we weren't able to tell every aspect of every story, but one of the things we loved about Clemmie's story was that she was one of the few people who during this had a true – did a true 180. Had a true shift of character. That over time she then flipped and realized that she had actually been a very active tool of helping Lucas confess. And there were many times when Lucas had hinted that he wanted to start confessing, or maybe hadn't killed all these people. And she had encouraged him to keep going. She became a tool of the Rangers in doing that.
And, in fact, one of the reasons why he did not retracted his confessions earlier was that he was so scared that she would no longer sort of love him because – basically, her mission in life in going to the jail was to bring these sinners to God. And he was her greatest catch or conversion in that manner. And that was the basis of their relationship, was him being a mass murder who'd changed his tune.
And, so, he was terrified – it was thing that when Vick Feazell had brought him to Wako and had him all ready to confess, they brought Clemmie in and he was – Vick Feazell describes Henry as being like a little whimpering child. That he was so scared that Clemmie would not love him. And, so that – she – her belief was so strong that it actually kept this thing going, these confessions going.
Rebecca: So, it wasn't just the positive reinforcement of cigarettes and milkshakes. It was also the positive reinforcement of being loved by Clemmie.
Robert: Well, it was really solving – bringing peace to the families and that Clemmie was very proud of Henry to help bring peace and closure to these murders. When in reality what was happening is he was bringing false closure in numerous cases and Clemmie obviously at the time didn't know that and didn't see that.
Kevin: I think the most interest relationship that Lucas had was with Sheriff Boutwell. What can you say about that? Because I think there's a lot there going on between them; that they both sort of needed something out of each other.
Robert: Their relationship is, perhaps, the key to the first half of this series. You know, here's Henry confessing to multiple murders in the very opening of the show and here is Boutwell convinced there's a serial killer out there. And they find each other and Boutwell is – realizes to get confessions from Henry he has to, sort of, put him in a comfortable spot and bring peace for Henry. And Henry, all of a sudden, is living the most comfortable life he's ever lived.And Boutwell is just thrilled by his participation.
And they become – as someone says, Boutwell becomes like a father to Henry. And they are very close. And this situation was bringing Boutwell much fame. He was on the cover of magazines. He was, you know, in Life magazine. He was on 60 Minutes. And he was becoming quite a hero.
And Henry was living the good life. And as you see footage that we have in the – you know, in the film that I find quite extraordinary is they're talking about him having murdered hundreds of people. He's walking around without handcuffs and he's answering the telephone. He's taking coffee out of the Ranger's hands when he wants it and ordering from the Sonic. He's like one of the team. And it's, you know – you're watching this serial killer walk around, put pins in the map where murders took place and it's, like, jaw-dropping footage.
Kevin: Yeah. And I think, too, when you talk about the footage, you guys probably picked up on this having seen so much more than we saw. But I thought that there was a lot of body language and approving looks that the sheriff was giving Henry that, you know, are sort reinforcing this emotional narrative. I think it was pretty clear in the films. Did you guys pick up on the same kind of thing?
Robert: It was very strong. I mean – but the strongest element is that here is Parker McCollough, Henry's defense lawyer when Henry is up for the electric chair. And here's Henry telling Parker the night before, "I didn't do it." And Parker has proof from all these people in Jacksonville that Henry was there and couldn't have done the murder in Texas. And then the next morning Henry changes his mind and decides not to testify, because he doesn't want to upset Boutwell.
There's the plaque on the wall that – the Lucas School of Psychology. It's signed by Henry and it's on Boutwell's wall and Boutwell is proudly showing it off.And he was very proud of it and it was – at the same time, it's kind of, in retrospect, pretty amusing to look at and scary.
Taki: At the time, Boutwell was considered a Henry whisperer, for want of a better word, by those around him, and was able to kind of manipulate Henry to do what he wanted. But, like so many of these relationships, you kind of come away wondering who was playing who.
Rebecca: You know, later in the series they talk about him having an IQ of 87. And, frankly, that stunned me, because he had such a high – in some ways a very low, but in other ways a very high level of emotional intelligence, where he's able to read the room and give individual people what they want, depending on who they are. And that's – it does take some talent.
You know, that kind of speaks also to his relationship with Ottis Toole, who is his – you know, for lack of a better word, like, his road sidekick for awhile and who was sort of also, for a while, on the radar as being complicit with him in all of these crimes. Can you just talk a little bit about that relationship? Because it seems complicated. And it also seems like there may have been some stuff that maybe didn't make the documentary. I'm just curious what else you can tell us about Ottis.
Taki: Well, they met when Henry had driven a car down to Jacksonville, Florida and then run out of gas and had gone to the local mission where Ottis picked him up. And then he brought him back home and he moved in with Ottis and they lived together.They shared a bed together.
They, from there, depending on which version of the story you want to hear, they went off on a six, or seven, or eight-year killing spree all over the country. Or they did odd jobs and had this strange part-time lover, part-time just very close friend – I mean Henry basically became part of Ottis' family, which is how he met Becky, who was Ottis' niece.
And their relationship was clearly a very close one.They clearly loved each other.Because they brought the two men back together six months into this whole confession spree, where Ottis had decided to go along with what Henry was doing – from a completely other state, Ottis was in jail in Florida. And yet he was confessing to all the same crimes Henry was. And they brought them together and there's an amazing moment in episode two, I think it is, where Henry just gets overwhelmed and starts crying, and Ottis starts holding him and protecting him. And it is – it's a fascinating relationship and you could have an entire episode on it, if we had time.
Kevin: And today we would think that Henry Lee Lucas murdered 600 people if not for Hugh Aynesworth, correct?
Taki: That's a really hard question to answer.
Rebecca: I think it was the lady cop, myself. Linda Erwin is my hero.
Robert: You know what was really interesting is she had no interest in being in this film. I think she hung up on you a few times, right?
Taki: A few times.
Robert: Yeah. And then I called her and started talking. And she goes, "You're trying to rope me in, aren't you?"And she goes, "I'll –"She didn't want to say anything.And then, as we started to talk and got to see her and got to meet her, she just couldn't help herself. She just started getting so upset and really saying, you know, "You might want something, but just because you want it, it's, you know, you gotta prove it. And if you can't prove it, you don't got it." And she was pissed.
Linda: I knew that anything and everything he was telling didn't match up with any unsolved murders that we had.
Kevin: But come back to Hugh for a minute, because he certainly was the first person outside of the system who was skeptical and made it public – his investigation into, you know, the inconsistencies in these confessions and where he would have to be around the country. What did you think about his contribution? He did talk to you guys and he seemed to certainly provide, you know, a good – while it was happening, I was in the room while this was going on kind of perception.
Robert: Hugh was – I mean what's so amazing is that we have this footage of him listening to Boutwell and Henry right from the very beginning of that relationship. And he's totally – Boutwell has totally accepted Hugh Aynesworth into the fold because Hugh Aynesworth had written the definitive book on Bundy. So, he was viewed as someone that Boutwell felt safe with.
Hugh: Sure, Jim Boutwell had read my Bundy book. And he said, "Well, you come down and talk to Henry anytime you want to." Well, I started doing that quite often.
Robert: And Aynesworth is starting to hear things that don't make sense to him, and realizing the killer was in Washington state one day, and killing in Florida the next, and then killing somewhere else the third day.And, like, logistically he's thinking, "Wait a second. Henry couldn't have done that." And things just don't work. Or Henry's saying, "Hey, I drove to Japan." Things were not making sense to him.
This is at the very beginning. And it's really interesting, as you watch the footage, you see Aynesworth listening to Henry and listening to Boutwell. And you could he's starting to think that something is wrong, but he doesn't quite say it. And you're watching it in the footage. And I find that really fascinating. But he then goes off to find the facts for himself and he's a hero that way.
Rebecca: All right. So, one of the most extraordinary character arc that happens is Vick Feazell, the D.A. who began to suspect that something was off when he was denied access to that database. But went from being a D.A. to, at one point, being Henry's lawyer.
But in between, because of his investigation or his, you know, claims of corruption around this case in the Texas Rangers, he finds himself arrested, indicted, on trial for corruption. I couldn't help but wonder, is there – was there something else going on with him that didn't end up in the documentary? Or was it really that he was messing with the Texas Rangers and their, you know, mission to get Henry Lucas to confess to as many murders as possible. Was it really that?
Taki: Well, it depends on who you ask. I mean, if you ask the Rangers today or if you ask Jack Friels today, they'll tell you that they think that Vick Feazell was corrupt.And if you believe Vick, and if you certainly believe the civil and criminal trials that he went through, he was completely exonerated. So, There you go.
Robert: Bob Prince, to this day, thinks Vick is – deserves to be in prison every bit as much as Henry deserved to be in prison.
Rebecca: Yeah.
Kevin: I did like the subsequent shot that you used where it's tight on him in front of the – and pulling out in front of this –
Rebecca: Giant house?
Kevin: . . . giant house that he obviously paid cash for.
Taki: Tara.
Kevin: Exactly.
Rebecca: It was jaw – I mean his whole character arc was jaw-dropping; it really was. It was like every single time you would hear about something happening to him, it was jaw-dropping. But perhaps the most jaw-dropping moment in the whole thing – well, two things. But, like, you kind of guess where I know I'm going –
Robert: Yeah.
Rebecca: . . . is when we learn that for a few minutes there, everyone thought that Becky was actually alive all along. And we have these interviews with alleged Becky in her home with this guy who says he's her husband and a, like, poster with profanity on it, like, right in the background, which is super-weird.
Taki: Oh, the cut.
Rebecca: And, like, everyone – like, Vick, everyone's like, "We're a 100 percent sure it's her." And I'm just sitting there and I'm like, "I don't know. I kind of remember there being, like, body parts that people thought was her."
Can you just talk about, like, putting that in the documentary and – I mean, I know that you knew this story when you were making the film.But even though you knew this story, when you would see this footage, did you have moments that were jaw-dropping to you when you actually saw these things for yourself in this archival footage?
Taki: Many.
Robert: Every time we watch it our jaws drop. I'm mean it's like when they ask Vick, "Are you sure she's Becky?" He goes, you know, "I'm a 100 percent sure. It's like I have a royal straight flush. And when you have a royal straight flush –" And I'm going, "Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no."
But, you know, it comes back to what the story is all about which is Vick wanted to believe it. And the same way that the Rangers wanted to believe it. So, in a funny way, it's just how we can get fooled by our own beliefs. And he wanted to prove that Henry was totally innocent.
And he got taken in by a lady when he shouldn't have been taken in. And he knows it was a big mistake and he – you know, for him it's a painful mistake.But he was able to admit his mistake and he feels that's where he's different than some of the Ranger mistakes that weren't admitted.
Rebecca: What was in it for fake Becky? She was corresponding with Henry in prison obviously. Did she just want to be part of the story? Like –
Kevin: Yeah. And you ended up finding her and getting her on Skype.
Rebecca: You're just amazing.
Robert: See –
Rebecca: Amazing.
Taki: I mean Henry was not the first serial killer that she'd been in correspondence with. There was Manson and there was Richard Ramirez, among others. And, so, I think she – you know, every one of us is unique and different and special in our own way.
Robert: Oh, my God.
Rebecca: You're so generous.
Taki: And Becky, I think – and then Phyllis/Becky had a fascination with serial killers. And, you know, in her mind, despite the fact that she was married with children, she fell in love and told Henry that, you know, she loved him and he loved her.And she – the reason why she came forward when she did was that Henry was about to be executed. And, so, she revealed herself as the true Becky. So –
Rebecca: What about her husband? Who was that guy?
Robert: That was –
Rebecca: Like, why would he do it?
Robert: That's my favorite thing in the film – is he is totally this enabler to his, you know, to Phyllis/Becky's love for Henry. And when he's being interviewed and holding up a picture of Becky and asked if, you know, "Are you sure this is Becky, you know, here today?" And he looks at the picture and he studies it and he's able to lie with such a – he's a great actor. Because here he is lying, knowing it's not his wife –
Rebecca: It's so weird.
Robert: . . . but wanting to help. And there's footage that we had where he was on Montel Williams and talking – maybe you can tell about that foot –
Rebecca: Of course he was.
Taki: To be honest, we loved – yeah, so they went on Montel Williams and they had their children, or one of their children on there. And, basically, they were saying why they did it, which was to try and get Henry out of prison. But, of course, the whole crowd was against them.
Kevin: Really?
Taki: And they – what was interesting about that is we loved the footage so much, but our editor didn't end up wanting to use it because she said, you know, at some point these things just gets too strange, you know.We actually had to pull back on just how strange it was and let – because, as soon as you start cutting to things like a Jerry Springer or Montel Williams, it almost becomes a parody of itself, right?
Rebecca: Yeah.
Kevin: Right.
Taki: It's there. The footage is out there. It's amazing.
Kevin: Deep in the heart of the Texas corrections system, not known for clemency, Governor George W. Bush –
Rebecca: I know. That was crazy.
Kevin: . . . decides that he's going to – he's going to commute the death penalty for Henry Lee Lucas.
Rebecca: And they really – they execute lots of people in Texas.
Taki: But –
Rebecca: And now, Taki, I don't know if you spent a lot of time in the United States, but it's definitely a place known for executing people, even when there is doubt.
Taki: So I hear.
Robert: Yeah, as Bush says, "We're a death penalty state.We execute people." And he – you know, what should be known is, as governor and as president, he only commuted one sentence, and it was Henry.So –
And what was really interesting for us is a number of our characters, about four or five, said actually it was when I went to speak to George W. Bush that I convinced him that Henry wasn't the killer. And each one of them thought it was they that convinced Bush, which was pretty funny.
But I think perhaps the ultimate reason is that there were so many question marks around Henry and Bush was about to run for President.The last thing he needed was to have this blow up in his face. And he was safer commuting the sentence and letting Henry stay in prison for ten other life sentences is, you know, my guess, at least, as to his thinking at the time.
Rebecca: When you look at the archival footage of the coverage of Henry in your documentary, there is kind of a weird public and media glee around, like, the number of bodies associated with this guy. Like, "the worst serial killer." Like, there does seem to be, like, a public fascination and enjoyment with a serial killer being worse.
Kevin: And that report where the reporter said, "Each year 5,000 people are killed by serial killers."
Rebecca: Yes. Which is not right.
Kevin: That doesn't sound like the right number.
Rebecca: No. But, like, how much is the sort of drive for, you know – that the public is hungry for the story of, like, the worst possible one. You know, how much does that play into this narrative of the willingness to believe that Henry killed 200, 300, 400, 600 people?
Taki: Well, I think, from a police point of view, it was hugely influential. Because everybody who potentially had doubts could say, "Well, there's another 100 cases or a 150 cases. So, if he did all of those, he must have done mine." So, suddenly this became a celebrity case and everyone wanted to have their Lucas case.
So, from a police perspective this big lie is so much easier to believe. And from a media perspective, I think – certainly speaking to Hugh Aynesworth and Jim Henderson, they very much were aware that when they tried to burst this bubble by releasing the investigative journalism article, they had a lot of media who were really angry at them. Because they themselves, these other media, had become so invested in Lucas as the world's biggest killer and these guys were bursting their bubble.
Kevin: So, we get to episode five, and this is really Taki's question that he brought up in the beginning. If Henry Lee Lucas didn't kill another 200, another 300, another 600 people, then who did? And what does that mean? And this is where you get into some of these cold cases, some of these families that we have been following throughout the documentary and trying to get some resolution, some real resolution, about what happened to their loved ones. Tell us about that part of it.
Taki: Well, that is, in many ways, the heart of our story really, as to why we are doing this. I mean, it's a great – it's an interesting story, but what our film, or our series is really just the first chapter. And what truly happened in these cases, how much evidence is still out there that needs to be tested, how many killers are still out there walking free – I mean, we're talking over 20 states. We're talking probably anywhere around, at a rough guess, a 100 cases in one way or another still credited to Lucas or cases that were not properly reinvestigated after Lucas told a confession. And, so, you know, this is the million dollar question as to exactly what happened. And what we're really hoping this series will do is start a conversation and start to have a lot of these cases reexamined.
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Melissa: And that's it for this week's episode. We'll be back soon with a new True Crime series for you to add to your watch list. You can find earlier episodes of this show on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, Google Play, Spotify and wherever else you get your podcasts. You Can't Make This Up is a production of Pineapple Street Studios and Netflix. Our music is by Hansdale Hsu. I'm Melissa Slaughter. Happy streaming.
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