We've got the hosts of Death, Sex & Money, Food 4 Thot, and Call Your Girlfriend on the show to watch and talk about three new episodes of Explained. Anna Sale wrestles with the ethical issues surrounding Designer DNA. Fran Tirado and Joseph Osmundson dissect Monogamy. And Aminatou Sow tries to figure out Cryptocurrency (so we don't have to). Plus, we brought back Sean Rameswaram to host the episode! Explained is a new pop doc series from Vox and Netflix. Each episode is a mini 15 minute documentary covering pop culture, tech, science, and beyond. All the pop docs discussed in this episode are out on Netflix now.
We've got the hosts of Death, Sex & Money, Food 4 Thot, and Call Your Girlfriend on the show to watch and talk about three new episodes of Explained.
Anna Sale wrestles with the ethical issues surrounding Designer DNA. Fran Tirado and Joseph Osmundson dissect Monogamy. And Aminatou Sow tries to figure out Cryptocurrency (so we don't have to). Plus, we brought back Sean Rameswaram to host the episode!
Explained is a new pop doc series from Vox and Netflix. Each episode is a mini 15 minute documentary covering pop culture, tech, science, and beyond. All the pop docs discussed in this episode are out on Netflix now.
Sean: Welcome to You Can’t Make This Up, a companion podcast from Netflix.
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Sean: My name is Sean Rameswaram, you might remember me from the last Vox Netflix crossover episode about their new show, Explained. I usually host a daily news podcast called Today Explained from Vox. It drops every afternoon but not on the weekends. Anyway, I know how much you’ve missed me on You Can’t Make This up so I’m back, yay. Each week on You Can’t Make This Up we feature interviews discussing a different Netflix series or film with special guests and each story we talk about on this show has one really fun thing in common, they’re all true. Today we’re featuring a couple of different true stories from Explained.
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Sean: Explained is a new pop talk series from Netflix and Vox. Fifteen-minute documentaries about pop culture, tech, science and beyond. There are new episodes every Wednesday covering big ideas in a short amount of time. And on today’s show we’re bringing in the hosts of three rad podcasts to watch and talk about, three rad episodes of explained. You’ll here Anna Sale, host of Death, Sex and Money talking about designer DNA. Then we’ve got Fran Tirado and Joseph Osmundson, two parts of the quad squad, AKA, the four hosts of FOOD 4 THOT. And that’s thot, like T-H-O-T by the way. They’ll be discussing monogamy. And finally, Aminatou Sow, co host of Call Your Girlfriend will be taking us down a crypto-currency rabbit hole.
Okay, let’s get to it, Anna Sale, host of Death, Sex and Money. Anna interviews people about the subjects that we usually leave out of polite conversation and designer DNA sort of qualifies. Take it away, Anna.
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Anna: My name is Anna Sale, I am the host of the podcast Death, Sex and Money. And I just watched Designer DNA Explained and it blew my mind. I went into watching this thinking it was going to be very Sci-Fi-y and oh, my gosh, look at what scientists are learning how to do with mice and bacteria and it’s going to change the world and we’re all going to be living in Gattaca. And the movie Gattaca does make an appearance in this short doc. But what I was really blown away by was that like actually manipulating our DNA is something that’s already happening and it’s not necessarily driven right now by special tools that are coming out, it’s actually by the choices that we’re making when we find out genetic information when we’re pregnant. Which is something I have gone through. And at the time I did not think of what was happening to me as being a process of editing what was and wasn’t going to be in the genetic pool for the future of human evolution.
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Anna: When I got pregnant, I was over 35 and when you’re over 35 these days you can get a test when you are ten weeks pregnant where they get a sense of the chromosomal DNA of the fetus. And they just take a blood test and they get fetal blood through you and in that way, they can tell you if your baby that you’re growing has any chromosomal abnormalities. And at the time that the blood test was offered to me it was very much like, “Oh, here’s a way to find out if you’re having a girl or a boy. We’re going to do this test at ten weeks.”
And they sort of buried the lead that the other thing that I could potentially find out is if there were chromosomal abnormalities like down syndrome or other conditions that are quite lethal, that could lead to a stillborn baby or a baby that would die within the first year of life. And it was like, after I had that blood drawn that I realized, oh, like the consequences of getting this information could mean that I have to decide if this is a baby I want to have or not. And at no point was like the conversation about, you know, this could give you options to think about, about whether you want to terminate this pregnancy. It was just like; you’re just going to get this information.
And watching this documentary, it made me realize, like, oh, as we start to be able to learn more and more about the DNA content of the very smallest embryos, we can make choices about what we consider viable and what are people that we don’t want to continue to exist. If you are looking at genetic material when you are thinking of the kinds of babies you want to have, if you’re able to make choices about characteristics that are appealing or ones you want to eliminate, you get into questions about disability and preventing disabilities pretty quickly.
They had a great woman talk about this in the documentary, her name’s Rebecca Cokley and she is an activist who has achondroplasia or dwarfism. And she talked about like the looming threat of what will it mean if people can choose to not have babies who have this genetic condition of dwarfism? Like what does it mean that that’s a world that we could be headed into.
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Anna: Before I saw this like, you know, I was aware, I was just—I was in college, like early college when the genome was first sequenced and it felt like such a huge deal. It was like the very end of the Clinton presidency; it was like the dawning of a new era. And I remember it like—having a sense of the scope of the work that went into sequencing the genome. And that was, you know, like 18 years ago and then you think about like how easy it is to sequence DNA now and how quickly that’s all changed. And in the documentary, it talks about like now, you know, at home DNA tests that you can do and you can tweak the DNA of bacteria at home for less than 200 bucks. Like it’s all happening really, really fast.
It made me think a lot about like where I would draw that line between treatment and enhancement. And it also made me think a lot about how we think about humanness and disability and how we think of what kind of suffering is worth preventing and what kind of suffering is worth allowing to happen because it’s what happened through the course of the creation of a life. And these are really big, big questions. Like, where do you intervene?
We are going to have more and more tools to not only tell what our DNA—what kind of characteristics it leads to in terms of how it expresses, but potentially manipulating that. So, if we have those tools, I for one, like hope we have a lot more conversation about the decisions we’re making as we put those tools to use.
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Anna: Another thing that this documentary talks about is about like if one of the drivers of how genes are being selected is IVF, invitro fertilization, that in and of itself is not something everyone on planet Earth has access to, it’s expensive, it’s hard to do, it takes labor. And so, there’s an ethicist at one point in the documentary who talks about like there’s already a built-in advantage for kids who come from families with resources and privilege, we have seen that. And when you look at like kind of outcomes for kids who come from families with more than with less. And if you add on top of that this other layer of being able to intervene at the genetic level in different ways like it is just going to compound that already built in advantage that comes from nurture and access to resources. Like if you can actually get into the nature of it, the way that that will compound existing marginalization of people and inequality that’s built in, is really like, if you think about that it really blew my mind in terms of, if everyone has equal value when they come into this world as babies. Like if you are manipulating that before someone is born even to make sure they’ve got more of a leg up, it’s pretty dark.
On the other hand, like I really got a sense of the potential of this science to intervene and treat conditions that make life harder for people. So, I think there’s a question of like, is that the right thing to do? Because you’re making—you have the potential to reduce suffering and perhaps make someone’s life easier before they’re born into the world. But I don’t know, it’s just such a hard—it’s like, who’s defining what is a quality that needs to be fixed?
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Sean: Thanks, Anna, love your work. Moving on, when we found out there was going to be an Explained episode about monogamy, we knew just who to call, Fran Tirado and Joseph Osmundson, co-hosts of FOOD 4 THOT, T-H-O-T. A podcast discussing sex, relationships, race, identity, what they like to read and who they like to read. I’m going to pass the mic to the left right now where Fran and Joseph will talk about Monogamy Explained.
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Fran: Hi, I’m Fran Tirado.
Joseph: And I’m Joseph Osmundson and we are one half of the podcast FOOD, the number 4 and THOT, spelled how, Fran? T-H-O-T.
Fran: T-H-O-T, it’s a very important distinction and we are here today to talk about the Netflix documentary Monogamy Explained.
Joseph: Can’t wait.
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Fran: I have a slightly cynical point of view when it comes to monogamy. Like I’m—
Joseph: You?
Fran: Yeah, I’m a serial monogamist but it doesn’t make sense for me and I don’t know why I do it. I mean, I do know why I do it, like society has cultured us into believing that there’s like this one perfect, quintessential partner out there for you and that you get to sign a contract with them that locks you two and your bank accounts together forever.
Joseph: What’s your sign again, Fran?
Fran: I’m a Taurus in case you were wondering.
Joseph: No one was, everyone knew.
Fran: So, I have a very cynical point of view doing this even though it’s something that I do. And I’ll pass it to the Picses.
Joseph: Yeah, I am a romantic, shocking everybody. Actually, I was on a date last night and I love the word monogamous, which is actually brought up in the documentary, it describes me perfectly because I also am a serial monogamist, I’ve been single for 1.5 years, I’m doing great. But I love monogamy and I also love exploring but usually with my partner.
So, what I love about the word monogamous is that there are lots of different ways to have like a primary relationship and then incorporate other types of sex as well. And one of the ways, the way that I love it, is usually like having sex with my person. Like threesomes or a little sex party activity. I mean, one of the most compelling things that Dan Savage did say was that, you know, he’s been in a 25-year relationship, 20 of those years were non-monogamous.
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Fran: That’s really real, I mean, it’s real. Like we think about relationships in a really esoteric way because we have just this thing lingering over our head, which is like structural monogamy that’s like pre-conditioned us to think that like this thing isn’t working out and therefore abandon ship.
Joseph: One thing that I do love about queerness in general is that it gives you the framework to sit a little bit outside of heteronormative relationship ideals that like, you’re a little bit more aloud to construct the type of relationship that fits right for you. And sort of because we are a little bit more programmed to reject sort of gender norms, that gives us a little bit of a framework to talk about what types of relationships we actually want to construct and exist in. So, I, you know, I do think queerness is a great framework for that type of thing.
Fran: As it is a great framework for anything.
Joseph: Literally everything, literally everything.
Fran: Anything and everything.
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Joseph: I thought the couples were adorable. Everyone was sort of talking about the relationships. I thought they did a pretty good job of getting different types of people to talk about the different types of relationships. But I do think that the “experts”, the writers, the people who have been considering monogamy in their scholarly work or in their academic work did a very good job of talking through different ideas and the complications with each of those ideas. And I found them actually pretty good for dorky, scientist people.
Fran: Yeah, I agree, there was good like multiplicity of perspective in the documentary. I think I would have—in my very selfish brain I was like, “I would love to see like a smattering, like a bigger smattering of like single people, who are trying to like navigate what monogamy means.” Because when you’re in a relationship you have relationship brain and relationship brain totally reconstructs all of your points of view on like everything that you’re doing. So, I think I would have loved to see even more from the perspective of single people trying to navigate that because it’s when you’re outside of it that you’re able to think about monogamy and polyamory in a clear way.
Joseph: And what you want. It’s like what I want, not what I want in the context of this relationship. I wish they had talked a little more about socialization and a little bit more specifically about gender patriarchy and capitalism. They didn’t quite go there; it went to a lot of like how cultures are built. But it didn’t talk as much as I would want, kind of about power and capital.
Fran: Gender patriarchies. Like that’s like you’re always trying to be like, those are your safe words.
Joseph: It’s like can we read some Donna Haraway together? Like can we just do a—like a—
Fran: Oh, my God, Donna Haraway would have been perfect.
Joseph: Yeah, I know.
Fran: Oh my gosh, I’m sure she was on the list.
Joseph: So, like if there—you know, there were a lot of good sociobiological experts there. If there had been a critical fearist, one, just like someone who could sort of do the post-modern work of like taking apart all of the explanations and the power structures that built them.
Fran: And my critique for this would be the same critique for any cultural film I’ll ever consume, which will just be like, but like could it be gayer? You know? I did wonder, I was like, “There’s so much queers have to say about the state of polyamory and monogamy and how—and the queer perspective was within this documentary but like I wanted to see how like queers revolutionized what is an ideal that most straight relationships are trapped in.
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Fran: I do think that a lot of this information will be new, especially if this documentary like reaches places and less liberal places where we have, you know, access to these conversations all the time. My parents in the Midwest will have never heard of a lot of this stuff and they’re in their 50’s. And there are so many people within that demographic that I think will see this and be like, “Oh, I’ve never thought about this, this way.” They might not 100%--I would intuit that they’re not going to 100% agree with or even be able to grasp a lot of it. But I do know that it’s going to change the way they have even thought about the different kinds of relationships that you can have.
Joseph: So, I agree with that, I think it will be new for a lot of people. I actually have a—hi, hi, hi, Netflix, can you hear me? I had a really good idea. I think you should do screenings of this for straight couples. And then, as people are leaving have a back-room situation where people can just like try non-monogamy for the first time. Everyone would just like dabble and like try it right there in the movie theater.
Fran: Joe and I—
Joseph: Just poppers on the wall and—
Fran: We are just forever perpetrating the—
Joseph: Hi, Netflix, hi.
Fran: … inevitable continuation of the homosexualization of America. It is happening, it is upon you, don’t worry, just relax, don’t fight it.
Joseph: This is the nightmare of like—of, you know, people in Kansas who don’t want like word to get out there about queerness. Because it’s like you watch one documentary and then your non-monogamous forever. We’ve ruined your marriage; we have infiltrated you. You come out and then have a sex party and then you’re a deviant for life.
Fran: Yeah, just one secular cultural part, just men. It’s just like when I watched Moulin Rouge! for the first time and I was like, “There’s a world outside.”
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Sean: Thanks Fran, thanks Joseph, their podcast is called FOOD 4 THOT and last but not least we’ve got Aminatou Sow. Aminatou co-hosts the podcast Call Your Girlfriend, it’s a show for besties everywhere. Robin wrote the them song, it’s great. Anyway, here on You Can’t Make This Up, Aminatou will be talking about crypto-currency because, what is it? How does it work? I don’t even understand. Good luck, Aminatou.
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Aminatou: Hi, I’m Aminatou Sow, the host of Call Your Girlfriend, I watched Crypto-Currency Explained. So, crypto-currency is an encrypted, decentralized, digital currency. So, it means that it only exists on the internet, that it’s transferred between peers. And it’s confirmed in a public ledger via a process that’s known as mining. And so, those are the basics.
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Aminatou: I would say that I was familiar with the very, very, very, very basics of crypto-currency. And I actually own two bitcoin, they were given to me in payment for, I believe a conference that I did years ago. I have never quite known what to do with them and have been like very mystified by the whole process. It’s always seemed like it was fake money. I remember at the time being like, “Can you please give me real money, money that I can use instead of this.” And so, it’s been interesting to see the value like really, really accumulate and I still haven’t done anything with them because I—there was just like an aura of like mystique and fear and not quite understanding for me. So, that’s where I’m coming from.
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Aminatou: I think that watching this episode made me realize that I should probably decide what to do with the bitcoin that I own. I don’t feel comfortable buying more because, as the episode explains, there are so many issues with not knowing who actually invented bitcoin, there is no regulation. And something that I noticed that was very apparent in the documentary but has also been very apparent every time I have interfaced with the crypto-currency community is that it is overwhelmingly white and male. You know, there’s been a lot of talk about the “blockchain bros” and how just like overwhelmingly masculine that culture is.
I believe studies say that it’s something less than, you know—like women are only about 4% to 6% of blockchain investors. And the bitcoin gender divide, honestly, could be a bad sign in the sense that if women don’t get more involved in crypto-currency it’s not going to become less risky. And I think that that’s something that I think about a lot. I’m like, “I’m a block woman, so I’m very, I’m very averse to risk when it comes with my money. And I know, I know—I like know all the reasons to like want to invest and do like wild things.” But like, some of us do not come from money so, it’s easier to be like, “Here is not going to work within the regulations of banking.”
And I know that, for example, my money in the bank is, you know, like—it’s insured up to $250,000, that’s something that makes me feel great. Does not make me feel great to own what seems like fake money that I can’t really spend somewhere and I have so many more questions about.
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Aminatou: I think that the docuseries actually did a really great job of explaining what bitcoin is and how it fits into the financial system. Like, for example, I had not thought of tying it back into the history of credit cards, because, you know I just—I was born into a world where like credit cards and plastic was so—it was already here. So, it was not an innovation for me. Also, the trust problem, generally, of how, you know, like every actor in the financial system is somebody that you need to trust and how that is hard to build.
Where I do wish the documentary had gone deeper into was really explaining how blockchain works. Because that is still a complete mystery to me. I know that, you know, we have to use computers to mine. I know that they use a ton of energy, which actually, the docuseries does point out. But I still like fundamentally do not understand how it works and I also do not understand how you can set up your own crypto-currency, right? There are so many different coins. I mean, I want to set up Amina coin because it seems to me that if anybody can just make their money, I can make my own money and I can become rich.
You know, it sounds like a scam, like truly it does sound like a scam. I don’t quite understand it and again, I think it goes back to this thing of, you know, like being a minority. You know, there are reasons that we have government regulations, especially when it comes to money. Because a lot of people were like shut out of—shut out of wealth building. And, you know, to be clear, traditional banking still has a lot of problems. And when I think about something like crypto-currency that is the future and you realize that so few women are part of it. And I would wager that people of color even a way smaller part of it. It does give me cause for concern in the sense that we’re building the future again. There is this whole new wealth building experiment that is happening and once again, minorities are shut out from it.
People in technology always say that, you know, they think that they are part of a meritocracy and that anybody has access to this stuff. And the promise of crypto-currency is that anybody can have access to it. But the reality of it is not that and the numbers bare that out. So, that is actually very unfortunate. So, you know, I’m just like, “If young white dudes in their—you know, I don’t know—in their parents’ basements can make like doge coin, I would like to make Amina coin. But it does seem like fraud and, you know, and I’m like, “When people start going to jail for all of these things, I bet you like Amina coin will be the first to go.” So, that, you know, it worries me and it excites me but mostly I feel like I need to understand more.
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Aminatou: I was really surprised by—I didn’t know that if you lost our password that, you know, there was no way to get your money back. So, all of these people losing bitcoin, that would drive me—that would drive me up the wall. So, I think that that aspect of it was—it was very, very—I was actually like very surprised by that. And now I need to figure out how to access my two bitcoin that I own.
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Sean: You just heard Aminatou Sow from Call Your Girlfriend, Designer DNA, Monogamy and Crypto-Currency Explained are all out on Netflix right now and you can catch all new episodes of Explained every Wednesday on Netflix.
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Sean: You Can’t Make This Up will be back in two weeks to go behind the scenes of the academy award winning Netflix Original film, Icarus. It’s director Bryan Fogel will be in conversation with one of the hosts of The Longform podcasts, Max Linsky. I’m Sean Rameswaram from the Today Explained podcast. If you’re going to miss me, listen to that show. It comes out every day, Monday to Friday in the afternoon. You can listen on Apple Podcast, Stitcher, Google Play, Spotify, all the places you can find You Can’t Make This Up. Subscribe, rate, review, tell your friends, tell your mom, tell the FedEx guy, tell the UPS guy. You Can’t Make This Up is a production of Pineapple Street Media and Netflix. Our music is by Hansdale Hsu. I’m Sean Rameswaram. Thanks for listening.
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