This week we're talking about the Emmy nominated documentary film, Jim & Andy: The Great Beyond, Featuring a Very Special, Contractually Obligated Mention of Tony Clifton. (Yes, that is the real full-length title.) The film documents Jim Carrey's transformation into Andy Kaufman by using over 100 hours of behind the scenes footage from the set of Man On The Moon. And here to discuss that transformation and the making of this film are comedian Michael Ian Black and the film's director, Chris Smith.
This week we're talking about the Emmy nominated documentary film, Jim & Andy: The Great Beyond, Featuring a Very Special, Contractually Obligated Mention of Tony Clifton. (Yes, that is the real full-length title.) The film documents Jim Carrey's transformation into Andy Kaufman by using over 100 hours of behind the scenes footage from the set of Man On The Moon. And here to discuss that transformation and the making of this film are comedian Michael Ian Black and the film's director, Chris Smith.
Will: Welcome to You Can’t Make This Up, a companion podcast from Netflix.
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Will: I’m Will Trowbridge. I’m the editor of Netflix is a Joke and I’m super happy to be hosting this week’s episode. As you know, every other week on You Can’t Make This Up we bring in a new interviewer to talk about a Netflix series or film with special guests and all of those stories are surprisingly true. This week we’re not solving any murders or joining any cults. Instead, we’re getting to know Jim Carrey, Andy Kaufman and of course, Tony Clifton in the Emmy nominated documentary film, wait for it, Jim & Andy: The Great Beyond featuring a very special contractually obligated mention of Tony Clifton. But we’re just going to call it Jim & Andy. Jim & Andy uses behind the scenes footage from the set of Man on the Moon to document Jim Carrey’s transformation into Andy Kaufman both onscreen and off. Here to talk about the film is comedian, Michael Ian Black and the director, Chris Smith. You might know Michael from the Netflix original show, Wet Hot American Summer or maybe you listen to his insightful podcast How to be Amazing. Chris and Michael sit down to talk about how Jim Carrey, Andy Kaufman and the making of this film has influenced the two of them throughout their lives. Quick note, when they talk about Spike, they’re talking about Spike Jones who also produced Jim & Andy but enough caveats here’s Michael Ian Black with Chris Smith.
Michael: Hi everybody, I’m Michael Ian Black and I’m very excited to be speaking with the director, Chris Smith. Chris directed Jim & Andy: The Great Beyond and I guess Chris, if we can, I’m going to start with basics probably things that you have answered a 1,000 times before but for our listeners who don’t know, and I assume there will be some, can you give us a brief overview of the film and how it came to be?
Chris: The movie is basically on the surface a look back at this time where Jim Carrey played Andy Kaufman in the film, Man on the Moon. So, there was around 100 hours of footage of Jim sort of method acting that movie and sort of, you know, where he became Andy for four months. And I think it was one of those things like we all have which was a project that Jim always meant to get to and it just sort of never materialized. And from what I understand him and Spike had been talking about different things and maybe working on something together and he had mentioned that this footage existed and Spike being Spike sort of, you know, just held onto that idea and just kept coming back to it and then eventually him and, and our other producer , Danny Gabai approached me about coming on board and, you know, looking through the footage and potentially doing an interview with Jim or other cast members and seeing, you know, if there was something there. And so it really was—it originated between Spike and Jim and, and then they came to me.
Michael: What was it about that hitch that attracted you?
Chris: You know, to be honest, I didn’t know that much about Jim. I sort of just like live in my own world when I’m working on different projects and, and so I found it really interesting this opportunity to like learn about him and his experiences while making this movie. So, you know, I respected sort of the world that he had carved out in terms of movies and, and sort of, you know, I don’t think there’s many people that have been able to sort of create an industry around themselves and to that degree with something that just didn’t exist before, you know, so…
Michael: Can you describe what you mean by that world? Because I have a sense of it but I’d like to get a sort of broader sense of what you mean.
Chris: I mean, it’s sort of just like, you know, there’s new genres that come out like rap music comes out and it’s like I know that there was, you know, different comedians and artists that have existed before Jim but I, I felt like when he came on the scene it really was—there was thing known, you know, that became notice Jim Carrey movies.
Michael: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
Chris: And they sort of like—they all followed their own similar language and sensibility yet they were—they felt very unique in terms of the space that they occupied and so I was, you know, interested in learning more about that just because when he was at his sort of hay day I was like very much in a whole—in a different world of like Sundance art films and so was not paying as much attention to it and I think in a lot of the circles that I was in people probably sort of just wrote those movies off in some way of like, you know, not being as, as serious and it was really interesting to me to go back and take a look at them and realize that he was really like many steps ahead of, of us just in terms of understanding, you know, that each film had very deep significance to him and, and had themes and messages that were equally important but just were sort of packaged in a way that I, I think appealed to a much broader audience.
Michael: And what did you know about Andy Kaufman and his work coming into this project?
Chris: Well, Andy I was introduced to in high school through a friend of mine and, you know, it was at the time where it was like, you know, you’d get this worn VHS tape and you’d watch it over and over again. And we were obsessed with him just because you had, you had never seen anything like that before. And, and it was weird because it wasn’t like—it just sort of was like this thing that you were introduced to and you just didn’t understand, you know, from like, like a high school brain in the Midwest it was like you couldn’t understand—like there were just so many questions, you know, and I think that— you know, so I remember the time just getting into movies and filmmaking and thinking like, “Oh I would have loved to make a documentary on Andy Kaufman”, but this VHS tape existed so it wasn’t really an option for me because it was like it already had been done. And then I remember Man on the Moon came out and I was thinking like. “Oh my god they like—they just went and made this and like you could have done it again I guess.” And then is—it was interesting because it was like 18 years later it comes back again in way that I thought was like really—like an interesting angle where you were able to revisit, you know, Andy’s career, Jim’s career, sort of the way that they intersected in this, you know, film, Man on the Moon and sort of how that had an effect on Jim going forward.
Michael: In the movie, Jim—you caught him at a—and you talk about this in a very kind of introspective place in his life and in his career, what were you expecting when you sat down with Jim Carrey versus what you got?
Chris: I didn’t know what to expect. I hadn’t really—I don’t feel like he’s like that overexposed in the sense where I knew that much about him. And I also really liked to go into documentaries not knowing that much because it just opens up a dialogue and it’s not, you know, looking for answers that have been said a thousand times and sort of just like extracting those stories. So for me it was, you know, I had this long list of, of, of different topics and directions and questions that we could cover. You know, we had been trying to schedule this interview for a long period of time and it like—it would come and it would go and it was, you know, everyone’s schedules were moving and then I remember it was like December 28 and I got a call and it just like, “Jim can shoot, shoot January 7” and it was like, “Okay well we’re going.” And sort of like it, it, it was nice because it happened very quickly but, you know, I didn’t know what he would be willing to talk about, what was open and, and he just sat down and we had to send him all the questions before and I remember when he sat down he’s like, “I haven’t looked at anything. So you can ask me anything.” And it was just like—it was so open and there was just an immediate sense—immediate dialogue back and forth and it was funny how you have questions and it really just sort of went off the page and just went into a dialogue back and forth about that experience and sort of it would just like diverge into these tangents about everything else.
Michael: You say you don’t like to go in terribly with expectations but were there—what roads did you go down that really surprised you?
Chris: Well a lot of it, I think just sort of happened organically just from a dialogue back and forth. It would start with questions about Andy and the making of the movie then it would go into larger themes like, you know, about identity and again, to Jim’s credit often would take tangents that I, you know, couldn’t—that I was just along for the ride in a way. Like I mean, I would definitely—like we would be having a dialogue back and forth but it was generally like there were—I think there were a lot of things on his mind at that time that he was able to really convey an articulate in a way that I think really connected and still connects with a lot of people that see the movie that just sort of are reflections on our lives. So, it was something that just was very organize in the way that it unfolded. We just had this dialogue that was about, you know, four or five hours and I remember just walking away from that and just calling my editor and just being like, “I think we have it like we have everything”, and I think when we started we—there was an agreement that we could film four days and, you know, I had done this other film which was a single subject documentary and it was like we filmed, I don’t know I think it was like 15 or 16 hours over five days and like, you know, I very much expected that it might be something like that and it was—there was something—you know, Jim is just so thoughtful, articulate, in a way concise, you know, that we were able to cover so much in such a brief period of time but it was something that I don’t really know I haven’t asked him about this but it felt like something I think in his mind this was very much, you know, just a retelling of this one event and so, you know, I think at the outset a lot of people assume that we would film everyone that was involved and we’d get all these different perspectives based on the making of this film but for me that seemed far less interesting than actually doing an exploration into, you know, how these two people came to be and converge in this, you know, special with this Milos Forman film and sort of the affect that that would have on you going forward just to leave your life and sort of become this character, immersed in this character for four months.
Michael: One of the things—I’ll take my own tangent for a second but one of the things that I think people forget about Andy Kaufman that I think this—Jim’s performance as Andy Kaufman off camera reminded me and I think will maybe, the audience will understand a little bit when they watch the film, a lot of people hated Andy Kaufman. They hated him from the time he went on SNL and did Mighty Mouse and all the way through the wrestling stuff and all the way through the Tony Clifton stuff and that in a way what makes Andy Kaufman so spectacular isn’t seeing Andy Kaufman, it’s talking about Andy Kaufman:
Chris: Yeah.
Michael: And experiencing almost second hand the way you did when you watched—
Chris: Right.
Michael: ...that videotape.
Chris: Yeah.
Michael: Did you gain any appreciation or lose any appreciation for Andy Kaufman’s work in doing this film?
Chris: No it was a complete appreciation. It’s like, you know, we all know a lot of it but like actually doing it, going back and looking at everything again and seeing that body of work is—and I think he’d be offended of calling it that—but just seeing—
Michael: Why do you think he’d be offended by calling it—
Chris: Well just like—
Michael: …body of work?
Chris: … I don’t know. I mean, it just puts into a context that just seems so annoying. I mean, he was just like doing things, you know, and just like having fun and like exploring and pushing boundaries and that was like, you know—but just looking at that and looking at everything that he did or what he did with Bob and…
Michael: Bob Zmuda—
Chris: Bob Zmuda yeah.
Michael: …is his writing partner and friend.
Chris: Yeah or his brother, you know, the Carnegie Hall stuff. And like I don’t know just—it was—it made me feel like it was something that should be revisited often and so, you know, I felt really happy to be able to work on this and get people to sort of, you know, through Jim and through that footage that exists thankfully, I think people got reminded or reintroduced or introduced to Andy which always seems like something the world could use.
Michael: Jim & Andy: The Great Beyond really focuses most of its attention on this process that Jim Carrey underwent in the making of Man on the Moon where he to the best of his ability inhabited—and he talks about it in a very literal way—inhabited Andy Kaufman and then also Andy Kaufman’s character Tony Clifton. I don’t even know how to phrase this. He went so deep. He went all in on this thing. Did you get a sense from him whether he felt like that—as 20 years later would that—was that the kind of—was that the right move? Was that the thing to do? Was that the only way he could have done it?
Chris: Yeah I think looking back that he felt it was—I think he still feels very, you know, confident in his approach to playing Andy and I think like the more that you study Andy Kaufman and sort of look back at all of his material, I don’t really think that there’s another way you could do it. I mean, yeah obviously like some—an actor could just sort of play this role. But I think when you—when you see like the sort of wild-eyed energy of the way that Andy lived his life which was almost playing a character as well, it felt like as—like an applicable approach because it’s, you know, Andy I think very much lived a character in some ways, you know, the choices that he made and, you know, with the wrestling or, you know, the many sort of stunts or performances that he would do in the real world and it was definitely, I think for Jim taking on that approach made a lot of sense and I think looking back on it I don’t think it—I don’t think that there was any hesitation that that was the right decision.
Michael: One of the amazing things from an acting point of view, being an actor myself, and looking at that footage is the kind of utter madness it created on that set.
Chris: Yeah.
Michael: There is a misperception I think about actors in general that when they play characters—because you hear these stories on occasion. Daniel Day Lewis doing this for Lincoln, I think there’s a misperception that this is a common thing. It is far from common. I’ve never met anybody who does this and I think I would be scared for their sanity if I had and yet clearly this approach can work. Did you speak with anybody from the production itself off camera or in subsequent interview who had any perspective on what it was like?
Chris: I didn’t actually. We—I think the plan was to start with Jim and in my mind I was just very hopeful that that could be the movie and so I think had that interview not gone well or it just didn’t sort of give us what we needed I think at that point we would have done—tried to do subsequent interviews with all of the cast and with Milos. So, it’s something I actually—I mean, now that you mention it I’d be fascinated to sort of hear their take looking back on it, you know? But there’s definitely like reactions you get from people within the footage that give you a sense that it was a very trying experience.
Michael: Oh yeah and even somebody like Danny DeVito who, you know, I feel like I don’t know the guy but seems like he would be game for stuff. Like you can see the kind of—terror might be too strong of a word but in the beginning of the shoot you see his alarm at this and then by the end of the shoot it seems like everybody has kind of made a peace with it and Jim talks about this in the film about how people have come to fall in love with Andy not with Jim as Andy but with Andy.
Chris: Yeah. No, you definitely feel a shift and I think it’s more of—I mean, from looking at the footage it felt like acceptance it felt like acceptance, you know? There was like that both sides sort of came to learn how to cope with each other.
Michael: So much of the film or really the entire film is about identity and who we are and how much of the people that we are is created purposefully or not and one of the things that was so striking to me about Jim’s experiences and Andy’s experiences, but I’ll start with Jim, was there’s this scene in the movie where he’s talking about his early years.
Chris: So I was just making sound. I was just doing things that were weird and I go home and I’d lay on my bed and I’d think, “What do they want? What do they want? What do they want? What do they want?” It wasn’t what I wanted. I knew what I wanted. I wanted to be successful. I wanted to be a famous actor but what do they want? What do they want? What do they want? What do they want? And then one day in the middle of the night I woke up out of a sound sleep like sat up in bed and went, “They want to be free from concern.”
Michael: And it seemed like he was willing to do whatever it was he thought they wanted. What do you think having spent that time with him, what do you think he was looking to gain in those early years? Was it purely about success for him? Some sort of nebulous idea of success?
Chris: I mean, that’s, you know definitely a question for Jim but it feels—I mean, it’s funny as like being a filmmaker in that time space where you’re trying to figure out what’s interesting to you and what subjects you want to explore. It was interesting to me—for me to look back and think about from the entirely differently perspective of what the audience wants and like—and unlocking that code and I—and it’s funny because it’s such a simple idea yet it was something that escaped me my entire life in terms of—
Michael: Oh ditto.
Chris: Not that—
Michael: Ditto.
Chris: …yeah not that I didn’t want to make movies that people enjoyed, you know, but it was definitely—it came from a point of like what was I interested in and then you hope that that connects with audiences and it was really interesting to me to sort of see that he was that sort of attuned to that idea that early and just laser focused on finding projects that sort of spoke to a greater audience and yeah it was something that I feel like I wished I had learned earlier.
Michael: You had mentioned how early in your career you were focused on the kind of the Sundance Indie world and hadn’t paid as much attention to the more commercial Jim Carrey world. And I know that when those movies came out I was starting out in my career as well and feeling like those films weren’t serious in the way that I was looking for movies to be. That they were kind of slapstick and over the top and broad in way that I recoiled from but I like you watching this movie had a kind of new appreciation for what he was doing and this understanding that he was trying to learn how to essentially be himself or communicate the things that he needed to communicate the totally bassackwards way that you or I approaching—or do which is we start from the personal—
Chris: Right.
Michael: …and hope to get commercial success. He started from the place of commercial and hoped to get personal. Conversely, Andy Kaufman seems to have approached his work from the entirely opposite point of view. He started from a place of utterly personal and somehow found commercial success with this. Do you have any thoughts on how calculated Andy Kaufman was being in terms of pursuing his own career? Because we tend to think of him as a pure artist certainly from a comedians point of view, we tend to think, “Oh this was the purest form of this.” But it seem—but looking at your film it seems like there’s actually a fair amount of calculation there.
Chris: I mean it’s hard to say its—I think one of the great things about Andy is that he leaves so many mysteries in terms of your understanding of him and I definitely wouldn’t be the person to speak from an expert opinion. I did meet his brother after one screening and we went and had coffee after and, you know, you gain a little bit more insight and I definitely Michael would have like the best sort of read in terms of read in terms of what was real and what wasn’t real. But, you know, the greatest thing that he said to me was he said, “Andy would have loved this movie”, which you don’t know. You never know how someone would react and who knows if that’s accurate or not but it made me feel really happy that like, you know, and I think Michael even went into it sort of very skeptical. I think seeing a story so personal to you being told outside of your control in a lot of ways would be very, you know, I think that you would go into it with a very skeptical view but he was very complimentary. To me that was like the greatest achievement of the movie was just that, you know, someone that close to Andy or as close to Andy as you could get is—had that opinion.
Michael: I think a lot of artists, filmmakers, writers, musicians whatever will talk about how whatever piece they’re working on whether they know it or not it their own story. Jim talks about this in the film quite a bit. When you approached this movie about these very different people in some ways and some ways the same, you’re now a much more successful filmmaker sitting down with another successful filmmaker and talking about it a successful comedian. What story do you feel like you found in your own life that you’re telling with this or have you?
Chris: I felt like I just—I learned a lot actually making this movie. Like yeah, I feel like I learned more from this film than any other film I worked on just because of my exposure to Jim and sort of being brought into his world and the way that he looks at things and thinks about things is—it was completely unique. You know, one of the main lessons—I think everyone—every movie is a like roar shock test, you know, where you’re sort of like you take away from it what applies to you in your life. It’s like a horoscope, you know, everyone can read something else into. But for me, looking at Jim and Andy, you know, was very much you have, you know, everyone I know is like working really hard and feels like when they get this level of success that everything’s going to be okay and they’ll be able to relax and be happy and you have somebody who’s made it to the—you know, achieved everything that they hoped to achieve in life and is still struggling to find peace and he talks about that and to me that was the harrowing thing of the movie was just, you know, you’ve had somebody that went to the other side of the mountain and came back and said there’s nothing there and, you know, and I’m sort of working on all of these projects and you’re trying to get these things together and you’re always thinking like, “Oh once I get these few things done and get this level of success that like everything will be fine” and you’re—and I think the most interesting thing from what Jim talked about was just that like to take a step back and really look at the things that will make you happy and make you feel content because it might not be what you think it is and so working on the movie for a year and sort of living in his world and the way that he thinks like that was something that just like continually came back to me and was like one of these life lessons that I felt like is good to be reminded of as often as possible.
Michael: It seems like as Jim disappeared into Andy and Andy disappeared into Andy it also feels like Jim has in a weird way disappeared himself.
Jim: I don’t want anything. That’s the craziest thing and it’s the weirdest thing to say and I—in a place like America where I have no ambition. I really truly don’t. How you doing Milos?
Milos: I’m doing fine Andy.
Chris: Where do you think that’ll take you?
Jim: Nowhere. I don’t have to go anywhere. That’s fascinating to me now. The disappearing.
Michael: He gives the sense that he—I got the sense from him that he just wants to kind of be in this moment in this time and to find peace in that. What were your impressions of him as a guy in the few hours that you had with him?
Chris: No there’s something very calming about spending time with him and I’ve been lucky enough to sort of like maintain a relationship and I’ll see him when I’m in L.A. and it’s always the same. It always is like this very controlled like very Zen experience. It’s funny and like when you’re talking about different things and like it’s all that but like there definitely is something that feels very—I don’t know in some way he’s very wise and has lived many lives and seen many things and sort of, you know, has all that wisdom that they sort of carry with them. So in that way, it’s a relationship that I feel very lucky to have sort of fallen into just by virtue in nature making this movie.
Michael: There’s a segment in the film which exactly parallels something that happened in Andy’s life when Jim is recreating the wrestling scene with Jerry Lawler.
Chris: Right.
Michael: And ostensibly gets injured dong this scene in exactly the same way that Andy Kaufman got injured and it’s clear from watching that this was staged. It’s clear from Jim’s recollection of it although he never says it that this was staged but it raised a kind of question for me because one of the things that’s going on throughout the film is that Jim Carrey is Andy Kaufman is belittling Jerry Lawler—
Chris: Right.
Michael: …constantly and Jerry Lawler is—does not have time for it.
Chris: No.
Michael: He’s furious.
Chris: Yeah.
Jim: At that point it was—I was not me, you know? It was not me. I was not making choices based on what Jim does. I was making choices based on what Andy does and Andy does the choice that makes you want to leap over the barrier and clock him.
Jerry: I guess I’m thinking about what Andy was really like and as far as I can remember it was like he was very well-mannered. I mean, he always referred to me as Mr. Lawler that sort of stuff. He—I mean, Jim Carrey’s coming up behind me doing all this kind of stuff shoving me.
Michael: But it seemed to me like going through this maybe there was a deal between Jim Carrey and Jerry Lawler that he was going to do this in exactly the same way that Andy Kaufman had a deal with Jerry Lawler that he was going to do this.
Chris: Yeah.
Michael: And that Jerry Lawler had kept that secret and is now keeping this secret. Do you have any opinion on that or am I just nuts?
Chris: I mean, I definitely—it feels definitely like something that could have happened. But, you know, in the same way that Andy and Jerry had their agreement I think if that agreement did exist it was something that I don’t think either of them—at least to my knowledge have shared.
Michael: Right.
Chris: It definitely seems plausible thought.
Michael: Because Jim Carrey—I’m—now I’m just spit balling here.
Chris: Yeah.
Michael: But just seems like a lovely guy and—
Chris: Yeah.
Michael: ...would know that Andy was also a lovely guy and would have had this kind of handshake deal with Jerry Lawler and it seemed almost inconceivable to me that Jim Carrey the nice guy in mirroring Andy Kaufman’s actions wouldn’t have struck a similar deal. If not, it seems like that’s kind of nuts and if so, and the fact that neither of them have disclosed that, that seems equally nuts. Both possibilities to me are nuts.
Chris: This—but this also falls into the category of something that I’m glad we don’t know.
Michael: Of course.
Chris: You know.
Michael: It’s kind of fascinating to not know. I know what I’m routing for.
Chris: Yeah.
Michael: I’m routing that they made a secret deal and that he would treat him like shit on set and that Lawler would be in on it. Were there any—was there anything that you wanted to know about the movie or about Jim or his life that you feel like you walked away not knowing?
Chris: No. I mean, that’s thing is that every—there was nothing that was off limits, you know. So I felt like—I mean, to be honest there’s so much material that we didn’t use that just sort of went in even further and further sort of tangents that to me I wish could have fit in because it’s all interesting to me and getting that time with Jim and like—I don’t know it was such a—there was so many things that I loved that just couldn’t make the movie because I felt it was too far outside of the sort of what the film was about.
Michael: What’s an example of something that you loved—
Chris: I mean, it’s—
Michael: …that you…
Chris: …like a year later so it’s—
Michael: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
Chris: …hard for me to remember exactly. I just have very fond memories of like—and I remember talking to my editor often of like, “Oh we should cut like, you know, a 30 minute film that’s just like, you know, everything that didn’t fit” just because it—there was so much that was just like these great stories or thoughts, you know, that just sort of fell outside the bounds of what made sense for this particular movie.
Michael: What’s been the reaction to the film that most surprised you?
Chris: I mean, it’s funny it’s like in a digital environment, you know, it’s like movies are consumed so often now in living rooms and it’s like—
Michael: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
Chris: …you don’t—you’re not part of that dialogue. I think almost more than any movie I’ve worked—well I wouldn’t say more but it definitely was a fun film to sort of watch with a group of people and sort of have dinner afterwards and just sort of talk through sort of just different peoples’ impression of his choice that he made, you know, and everyone has their own opinion. And that’s like always engaging just because it’s something that like people—and also I think people take so much away from this movie in terms of, you know, there’s so many themes that Jim’s talking about in terms of fulfillment and sort of identity and the things that are important, you know, in life. And to me it was like yes it is this movie that retells this event but it’s really about, you know, so much more and I think that that to me was the part that was most engaging and exciting and unknown going into it because you just didn’t know if you would get there.
Michael: Have you talked to Jim about it? Has he seen it?
Chris: Yeah Jim has been great. He—we went to Venice with the movie. We went to Toronto with the movie. We did a screening L.A. and so he’s been incredibly supportive and helpful and, you know, I mean, the movie wouldn’t have existed with him and, you know, it was his idea with Spike and I mean, just in terms of them talking about like this footage and what it could be so he’s been incredibly helpful. But he was—he’s—it’s funny like just his instincts—like we had shown him some cuts and just like nonprescriptive but just some notes that came back just like you realize how much of a genius he is in terms of understanding film medium and the way that it relates to audiences, you know, and just…
Michael: Can you give an example of that of some way—
Chris: I mean, it’s again, it’s a year later—
Michael: I’m sure.
Chris: …but it’s—
Michael: I’m sure.
Chris: …like all is I can say is like just notes, you know, you get notes from friends and they’re often like hard to decipher or half make sense and half don’t. You have to really pull from there and Jim, you know, just in being helpful was like, “Oh you might want to think about this or consider this” and every one of them was just like so prescient and like brilliant in the way that his understanding of how to make a beat hit harder or a joke land funnier or like, “Tony says Jesus Christ here. I think if it was a little louder it would hit better”, and you’re just like, “Oh yeah.” Like it like it was sort of getting that little insight into why he was so successful which wasn’t just the material in his acting and the choice of projects but it was his ability to also contribute at every stage of the process.
Michael: Well that’s I think a really great example that you just gave because we’ve been talking about Jim as almost this guru but what you’re talking about is a very tangible specific note about raising the volume on something which I think is probably helpful to people—for people to hear, “Oh yeah well he also he’s a craftsman.” Like he—
Chris: Oh yeah.
Michael: …understands the craft—
Chris: More than—
Michael: …of this thing.
Chris: …anyone I’ve met.
Michael: There is a deep thoughtfulness that comes across from Jim Carrey in this film, not only about the sort of larger existential questions but these craft questions. This idea of sort of taking—looking down the road and taking the most direct route there even when you sort of get knocked about. He talks about not getting SNL, for example.
Chris: Yeah.
Michael: And how he had to remove the character of Jim Carrey that we knew from the early 90s to kind of exist as Jim Carrey, the person, the human.
Chris: Yeah.
Michael: At some point when you create yourself to make it you’re going to have to either let that creation go and, and take a chance on being loved or hated for who you really are or you’re going to have to kill who you really are and fall into your grave grasping onto a character that you never were.
Chris: And you said that those conversations have really been inspirational to you and made you think about all of this stuff and, and did for me too. Are there any like—and you don’t have to tell me what they are but like are there, are there specific actions in your life that you have taken as a result of those conversations that you may not have taken otherwise?
Michael: I think in the moment of making the movie it was more like present and I remembered thinking like at the time I was like, “Oh there should just be like an audio book that you listen to”, because it’s like there’s so often that we’re—that we have these patterns that we fall back into which aren’t always in our best interests and I felt like when I was living the movie I was definitely living Jim’s philosophy in a lot of ways just because it was so—it was something I was listening to three times a week. And yeah, I mean, it’s just funny we get busy and we fall back into patterns that we’ve had and, and, you know, just talking about all of this today it just is like I’m immersed in a bunch of different projects right now and it’s all consuming so you’re just sort of like moving on a very mechanical—in a mechanical way and you’re not taking that step back to look at things from a broader perspective and it’s funny just having this dialogue you realize like oh that, you know, just being reminded to take that step back and look at things, you know, with all these things in mind is very important and it’s often overlooked.
Michael: And as we conclude it’s worth saying that Jim seemed to take a lot of that inspiration from Andy. I got the sense that he would—dismissive is the wrong word but you asked him at a certain point, “Would you be who you are without this film?” And he kind of says, “Well, no because everything that we do informs us.”
Chris: Right.
Michael: But at the same time it feels like he really learned the deep lesson from Andy Kaufman about this idea of being present and being open to the wonders of whatever is going on in the moment at that moment and there’s a kind of damn the torpedoes attitude about all of that and that ultimately the person your honoring in your work has to be yourself and your sense of whatever wonderment you bring to it. Did Andy—looking back now I know—I feel like I’ve gotten a sense from you of what you take away from your relationship with Jim similarly what do you take away from your relationship with Andy?
Chris: I mean, you know, I talking about it I just wish I had—I lived, you know, that you, that you thought about living that way more, you know, that like—that anything is possible. I mean, it’s not that I ever think that you can’t do something. It’s just, you know, this idea of like looking at things from a 180 degree perspective and pushing boundaries and like—and not just to do that for the sake of doing it but just, you know, I think that it’s often easy to fall back into a space that is familiar and I feel like Andy was constantly challenging himself to look at the world differently.
Michael: Yeah.
Chris: And, and that’s something that I feel like all of us could, could do more often.
Michael: The film is called Jim & Andy: The Great Beyond featuring a very special contractually obligated mention of the Tony Clifton, the director is Chris Smith. My name is Michael Ian Black. It has been a real pleasure to speak with you about this really wonderful, moving film and, and thanks for coming in.
Chris: All right thanks.
Will: That was Michael Ian Black and Chris Smith. Now let’s hear from you. Here are just a few thoughts and feelings you generously shared on social media.
Female: KennyMC1985 says, “I don’t know if I’ve ever watched something that made me second guess the human psyche more than Jim & Andy.”
Male: Josh Darnet says, “Just wanted Jim & Andy on Netflix. I don’t even know what’s real anymore.”
Female: @WZRebel tweeted, “Did I enjoy Jim & Andy? I’ve been asked that a lot. How could I not?” And then there’s a picture of the guy who tweeted and he is in full Tony Clifton gear standing next to a pretty concerned looking Jerry Lawler.
Will: And that’s it for this week’s episode. We’ll be back in two weeks to dive into the Netflix original documentary film, Amada Knox, not a comedy. It’s streaming now wherever you watch Netflix.
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