Jeffrey Epstein is a name that has been attached to headlines for years. Billionaire, American financier, convicted sex offender, now a dead man. Streaming on Netflix, the docuseries Jeffrey Epstein: Filthy Rich focuses on the survivor's perspectives as we hear their painful stories. The series also examines how Epstein evaded the law with his wealth, powerful connections, and network of co-conspirators. In this episode, Rebecca Lavoie (Crime Writers On...) speaks with director Lisa Bryant and executive producer Joe Berlinger. Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, this episode was not recorded in a studio. Thank you for understanding the change in audio quality.
Jeffrey Epstein is a name that has been attached to headlines for years. Billionaire, American financier, convicted sex offender, now a dead man.
Streaming on Netflix, the docuseries Jeffrey Epstein: Filthy Rich focuses on the survivor's perspectives as we hear their painful stories.
The series also examines how Epstein evaded the law with his wealth, powerful connections, and network of co-conspirators. In this episode, Rebecca Lavoie (Crime Writers On...) speaks with director Lisa Bryant and executive producer Joe Berlinger.
Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, this episode was not recorded in a studio. Thank you for understanding the change in audio quality.
Rebecca: Welcome to, You Can’t Make This Up, a companion podcast for Netflix Original True Crime Stories.
[Music]
Rebecca: I’m Rebecca Lavoie, your host. Each episode will take a close up look at a binge worthy true crime documentary or series. And I’ve talked to the people who made them, digging deep into the backstories and getting answers to questions raised by what we just watched. On the show this week, the documentary, Filthy Rich: Jeffrey Epstein. The pedophile billionaire who abused countless numbers of girls and young women for decades, Jeffrey Epstein evaded the law with his obscene wealth, powerful connections and a network of co-conspirators. At the heart of this series are the survivors who came forward to tell their stories. We hear from several women who put their painful truth out into the world in order to bring Epstein and his enablers to justice.
I’ll be talking with the film’s director, Lisa Bryant and executive producer Joe Berlinger. A few notes: this episode does contain spoilers so make sure to watch the whole series before listening on. This story also deals with the sexual abuse of minors which may be disturbing to some listeners. Because of the Covid-19 pandemic, our guests were recorded in their homes and not in a studio. They were also recorded separately. So, you’ll be hearing two interviews in this episode. We appreciate your understanding.
[Music] [Video Plays]
Male 1: The disgraced financier, Jeffrey Epstein, is dead.
Female: Did he kill himself? Was he killed?
Male 2: There was something happening here that was bigger than just Jeffrey Epstein.
[Music] [Video Plays]
Female 2: He was known as this Gatsby like figure of mystery.
Male 3: He was stunningly rich, he had a $20 million house, he had his own private island in the Caribbean.
Female 3: It has a nickname, the Pedophile Island.
[Music] [Video Plays]
Male 4: In 2005 the Palm Beach Police Department received reports of young women going to and from his residence.
[Music] [Video Plays]
Female 4: There was an ever-revolving door of girls.
Male 5: Who else was underage?
Male 6: I don’t know.
Female 5: But those girls brought other girls too.
Female 6: It’s a train and it goes on and on and on.
[Music]
Rebecca: And Lisa Bryant, director of Jeffrey Epstein: Filthy Rich, thank you so much for joining me.
Lisa: Well, thank you for having me.
Rebecca: You know, one thing that became really clear to me as I was watching this documentary is that, this is not something that was made after the news about Epstein really broke in like 2017. You’ve been working on this for a long time, right?
Lisa: Yes, as a matter of fact, we were in full production a good eight, nine months before anything happened. It was kind of the secret story that nobody seemed to take hold of and in fact, a lot of media stayed away from. We dug in and as a matter of fact Radial Media and Netflix worked very hard to make sure that this story was going to be told. We were not going to be intimidated by high powered attorneys of Epstein or Epstein himself. Because he was alive at the time and he’d certainly been known in the past, as all the evidence shows, to intimidate and try to shut productions down, shut witnesses down, intimidate girls and we were not going to be intimidated. And so, we were well into the production before it became international news.
Rebecca: It’s fascinating because you have so many interviews. Obviously, you did multiple interviews with a lot of people in this film, in particular victims. I’m assuming you did some of those interviews before the news broke. So, the trust you probably had to build with these sources probably took a lot of time. How did you get them to talk on camera before this became a story that everybody was talking about?
Lisa: It was very difficult, it was not easy, it was not even easy after the news broke. An interesting story is that we had an interview booked with a girl ahead of time and we got there with the cameras. And she all of a sudden was like, “Oh, my gosh, I’m so nervous, I don’t know if I can do this. I think I want to be in silhouette.” And we’re like, “Okay, that’s fine. We want you to feel comfortable and drive the narrative.” So, we interviewed the first survivor in silhouette. And an interesting story; as this develops and he’s arrested and then subsequently commits suicide, this same survivor comes forward and she told us, “I want to do the interview again.” And we’re like, “Of course.” And we re-interviewed her and she’s out and she’s a driving force in the series.
Rebecca: It’s interesting to me, you know, some of their stories, they obviously have—they’re incredibly—they’re all very credible. I mean, I don’t think any Epstein accuser that I’ve ever heard has come across as anything but like incredibly credible. Especially given how much their stories overlap. But one of the things I was really glad that you explored in your conversations with the survivors was what the dynamics of sex trafficking look like. It is so easy, I think, for people who don’t anything about what sex trafficking is, what serialized abuse looks like, what systematic abuse looks like when people in power are doing it. That, that credibility can get broken down by defense attorneys, by the medio by, sort of, sceptics. Because of the unique crime that is the kind of crime that Jeffrey Epstein committed, serially, can you just talk about how important that was to you? This is what sex trafficking looks like on film.
Lisa: It’s unfortunate that our society has not, to this point, really given survivors or victims of sexual assault the respect they deserve. And we felt it so important to get the facts out about sex trafficking. And through their stories, you know, they tell about how once you get trapped, he manipulates and he lies and he makes you feel safe and like, “I’m your friend.” And just that manipulation is part of how they’re coerced. And once you’re kind of trapped into sex trafficking, it’s so difficult to get out. He makes you feel that you can’t live without him. We heard that over and over from a number of victims. You know, he had kind of the same playbook and once you’re coerced it’s just very, very hard to get out.
Rebecca: Yeah, I mean, the power dynamic is incredible. I mean, as we heard in the Weinstein story it was very much about the continuation of your career, the launch of your career. And here, sometimes it was about eating and having a place to live and, you know, feeling like you had some security in your life. It’s interesting to me, I kept finding myself wondering—and I’d love to know what you think about this, it’s a question that I think about a lot—whether Jeffrey Epstein did what he did because he was powerful? Or whether or not he sought power so he could do this, so he could commit this crime, so he could get away with it for so long?
Lisa: You know, people that we talk to and attorney’s who’ve met with him numerous times and took depositions said over and over, he always thought he was the smartest person in the room. He was above the law; he could do anything he wanted. He was a classic narcissist, a sociopath who, no matter what, was going to win at all costs. It did seem to become a game to him and I think part of the thrill would be, “How is this girl going to react?” Because I think there was some knowledge that they were going to be brought over for a massage. Most of the women might have not known that he might get sexual with them. But I think part of the intrigue for him was he was going to get a different reaction. He never really changed his playbook. So, I think for him, it was kind of exciting. “Well, if this happens, I might do this, I might try this tactic. And if she allows me to touch her here or whatever, if I can push her in that direction then I’ll do this.” But, you know, it really was, I think, an interesting perspective to hear some of the depositions and things where he describes some of that. And the attorneys certainly talk about that as well as the psychologists, that that’s kind of a classic narcissist, sociopathic type of thinking and manipulation tactic in sexual abuse cases.
Rebecca: We see lots and lost of deposition footage in this documentary and one of the things that he says that’s so provocative is, “I wish I could answer that question. But these are the reasons why I can’t, I’m asserting my 5th and 6th and 14th Amendment privilege.” And it’s like, even him saying, “I wish I could answer that question” is like he’s creating cinema, right? For some future viewer of the video that isn’t even sitting in the room. That’s how it felt to me.
Lisa: Yeah, with a snarky grin on his face too. You know, I have to say those kinds of give you the chills. And I think what’s interesting and different about the documentary is that we use those as a tool, he kind of helps tell his own story and he doesn’t do himself, really, any favors either. And I think the exclusive interview that we have where he is indignant about his sentence in 2008, thought he should have got a better deal, is just unbelievable.
Jeffrey: On closer examination you’ll find my penalty was harsher, not less, harsher than anyone else who’s ever been charged with solicitation and prostitution. [Inaudible 00:09:21] by the way, you should understand, the same charge, it’s 100-hour fine.
Lisa: It’s jaw-dropping to hear him talk about that and you know, comparing it to jay walking, you know, his 13-month sentence where he was allowed to come and go from jail. You know, its mind blowing that he really believes what he’s saying is true.
Rebecca: I want to talk a little bit about Courtney Wild. She is one of the survivors that you talked to. She was a young girl who, you know, for lack of a better word recruited other young girls to come and make a little bit of money at Jeffrey Epstein’s house. By, you know—we can call it abuse, I mean, at the time I think she thought she was getting to perform an act but it was sexual abuse and she was sort of part of that pyramid scheme that he built.
Lisa: Yes.
Rebecca: I find these women, especially the women who were very young and were so vulnerable and were taken advantage of this way, I have so much empathy for them. Especially for the amount of guilt that someone like Courtney Wild feels. Can you talk about that?
Lisa: You know, I think a lot of the girls, not just Courtney, they did bring other girls. That was part of Jeffrey Epstein’s goal is to get them to bring their friends. You know, those high schools became hunting grounds, you know? Many of those girls brought other girls and yes, they do feel guilt. And I think some of them, like Courtney, felt kind of they were in a relationship with him and he was doing all these great things for them.
[Video Plays]
Female: So, in the beginning of the investigation when the police were reaching out to me, I was confused. I felt like I had this painting of Jeffrey that he was this awesome man, that he actually saved my life in a sense. That I was very lucky to ever be introduced to him. But then, I seen the police reports of girls that I had brought to Jeffrey’s, close friends and that made me have the change of heart. The emotions come over of like guilt and shame and disgust, it was traumatic. That’s when I started saying, “Okay, this isn’t right, something needs to happen about this.”
Lisa: He preyed upon these vulnerable, vulnerable girls who had terrible home situations and it’s heartbreaking, you feel for them. And Courtney is one in particular who, you know, she had a long relationship there or interaction with him. I hesitate to use the word relationship and she does too now because she knows how twisted it was. But she’s 14 and a girl that young should not be held accountable to the same standards as an adult. You know, those decisions, you know that they’re making at 14 is not something an adult would make. And the power dynamic is so off and twisted.
And anyway, now I’m really so proud of each and every one of them. Courtney, in particular, has really led the drive here to hold him accountable, hold his enablers accountable, hold these people who were complicit and silent for so long accountable. These young girls who were young girls at the time, they’re young women now and they’re just now finding their voice because they were afraid and intimidated and some signed NDAs and had settlements with him. It’s so unfortunate that it happened so young because it really is, you know, trauma is a lifelong thing. That sexual abuse affects you in many ways and it’s not something that you ever get over.
Rebecca: Yeah. I found myself thinking about, you know, you have Courtney on the one end of the spectrum and then you have Ghislaine Maxwell on the other end of the spectrum, right? A longtime partner, co-conspirator, allegedly, of Jeffrey Epstein’s. And then you had, you know, before we talk about her, you kind of had some women on the ladder in-between. People who were employees, you know, you hear about the young, beautiful assistant who came and said, “It’s time for your massage with Mr. Epstein.”
Lisa: Yes.
Rebecca: Where do you land when you ask that question? Like when does somebody go from being a victim of this system of abuse and being used and narcissism and obeyed the systemic ladder? Is there a rubicon that someone crosses where you can look at them as a victim or look at them as a perpetrator? You look at them somewhere in-between that’s harder to sus out?
Lisa: That’s a really tough question and each survivor has a different take on that. I think Ghislaine Maxwell, you know, they all looked at as at the head of his pyramid scheme. And she is somebody that, you know, they feel should have been a protector, a mother figure and yet she is the one who taught them what Jeffrey Epstein liked sexually. And, you know, lied to them, drew them in, promised them the world and she’s the evil, you know, step-mother of this story, really. And that comes from everybody that we talked to. There is that second tier of people who were also protected in the 2008 Non-Prosecution Agreement.
Rebecca: Yeah, they’re given immunity, yeah.
Lisa: And what’s so shocking is, you know, it was people like Sarah Kellen, Nadia Marcinkova, you know? There are other women who were in his life for a very long time and these girls were younger than Ghislaine Maxwell, who was an adult. I think a lot of the girls, though, are still very angry and think that these other employees should be held accountable.
Rebecca: I was really curious; I know that you have a journalism background and I was curious about the conversation that I’m sure was a difficult one to figure out how to tackle the conspiracy theories around Jeffrey Epstein’s suicide. Or as some would say, alleged suicide. It’s a complicated journalistic question, I know, to sort of take a public record and say, “This may not be true.” And then, do your best to show why some people think it may not be. I’m curious to know how that conversation went as you were talking about how to include it in the film. And whether or not, you know, at the end of it you have an opinion. You don’t have to tell me what—obviously we don’t know. But do you have an opinion as to what happened here?
Lisa: Well, the medical examiner did rule it a suicide and from everything that I know about Jeffrey Epstein and have read and have heard through these women and through the attorneys he probably knew he couldn’t live that lavish lifestyle, have tons of sex and all of the things he was used to in his life. So, suicide makes perfect sense for someone like him, with his ego and all of that. However, when like these strange happenings at the jail, you know, the tapes disappearing and, you know, the cameras were broken and the worker sleeping. It just facilitated that conspiracy theory and so, on the other hand, the idea of murder, we felt at that point when you’re learning those things, we had the duty to also explore the possibility of some other power at play here. Could it be murder?
We certainly learned that he likely had a blackmail scheme going. We heard that he had cameras all through all of his homes. And they found all those videos and pictures of girls when they raided his home. So, you know, there had to have been many people who wanted him dead and wanted to silence him. So, we wanted to explore that and, in that case, it kind of just grew. You know, was it murder or suicide? I don’t think we’ll ever know. I don’t have a personal opinion. I think you go with what the ruling is until you hear otherwise. But I just don’t think we’ll ever know.
Rebecca: I’m curious to know, you know, we hear from a lot of the victims at the end of the documentary that they were really disappointed that his story ended this way. They did get some validation from the judge who helped them feel good about being able to tell their story and gave them a place and a venue in which to do that. I’m curious to know what you think that the future is in store for all of these women that you got to interview? I know they have connections with each other. I think that your sort of protracted scene at the end with the paintings of all the victims, just like so lovely to kind of see all those stories woven together. But what do you think the future holds in store for these women?
Lisa: Well, I hope, above it all, you know, any crime victim will be given the respect that they deserve. I hope that these women do get compensated. I hope that these co-conspirators will at least be brought to trial and, you know, held accountable if they indeed are proven to have facilitated his crimes and covered them up over the years. But it’s a slippery slope. Is that the only thing that will allow them to have the justice that they so desperately want? We don’t know. Right now, I know that the decision is under appeal at the 11th District. Hopefully they will overturn that Non-Prosecution Agreement and then these other co-conspirators can be tried more easily, certainly.
The FBI is—they say they’re working this; I do believe that and I do think that they have to have all their ducks in a row. It’s just, it’s a complicated, you know, it’s just a very complicated decision. There are so many players and so many people and they have to have so much evidence and be so buttoned up to prosecute. But these women deserve that, they deserve that closure, I hope they get it, I know they want it. And I don’t think they’re going to back down, as Virginia Roberts said, “You know, there are monsters that are still out there, they need to be held accountable.” I think every one of them, they want justice and they want to be heard and I think they felt good about telling their story.
[Music]
Rebecca: Well, Lisa Bryant, I found the film to be impeccably sourced, beautifully made, I learned a lot about a story I thought I knew almost everything about. Jeffrey Epstein: Filthy Rich, it’s really an achievement. Congratulations and thanks so much for talking with me about it.
Lisa: Thank you very much.
[Music]
Rebecca: Joe Berlinger, executive produce of Jeffrey Epstein: Filthy Rich, thanks so much for talking with me.
Joe: Thanks for having me, I really appreciate the opportunity.
Rebecca: So, Joe, a lot of true crime aficionados, people who have been following your career for a long time, probably know you best for your trilogy of films Paradise Lost about the West Memphis Three. You also made another seminal film, Brother’s Keeper. These are really, you know, in the genre, the standard bearers for a lot of this kind of storytelling. What I’m really interested in is what drives you to certain kinds of stories to tell? Because, you know, look at Jeffrey Epstein, this is a very different kind of story then other films I’ve seen of yours.
Joe: Yeah, I mean we can very much get into the specifics of why I was attracted to the Epstein story but in general, for me to want to tell a story in the crime space is because I want to shine a light on some abuse. You know, whether it’s wrongful conviction in the case with Paradise Lost or, you know, I’ve done a number of series where we’re looking at problems in the criminal justice system. Over sentencing, you know, the problems with the war on drugs, systemic abuse in the criminal justice system. So, I’m always looking to tell a story where I feel like shining a light on it can move the needle.
Rebecca: So, for you, was the Epstein story about shining a light on the, you know, outsized influence that somebody’s money and connections can have in helping them get away with being a serial abuser for decades?
Joe: Absolutely, I mean you hit the nail on the head. I mean, most of my explorations of crime have involved what I and others call poor man’s justice. There are two very different justice systems in this country. If you have money and power and influence you can work out a sweetheart deal like Jeffrey Epstein. But I have seen the flipside and most of my work has been about the flipside of that phenomenon. You know, one of the leading markers of wrongful convictions is people low on the socioeconomic scale who can’t adequately defend themselves. And so, they find themselves being wrongfully convicted. Or even, you know, there are some people who are guilty of smaller crimes but find themselves being over sentenced. And I just became outraged when I learned of how Epstein was a serial abuser for decades and a secret sweetheart deal was cut. To not only get him off with the lightest of sentences but this insane Non-Prosecution Agreement for named and un-named co-conspirators. I’ve never heard of anything in my life where somebody cuts a deal to spend a minimal amount of time in prison. And even that was minimal because he was allowed out every day to go to his office and transact business. But anybody who enable this pedophile, sex trafficking ring would, in the future, never be prosecuted. I mean, it’s outrageous.
Rebecca: I think, you know this, I mean, you are a person who sort of lives in the world of filmmaking so, I’m sure that even before reading the Epstein things, you’d heard probably for a long time about the tactics that people like Harvey Weinstein used to keep news buried. Jeffrey Epstein used a lot of those same tactics, hiring private investigators, quashing journalism, keeping people from being able to talk. How onerous was it to decide to make this project knowing that you would be very likely subject to some of those same tactics in trying to make this film and bring it to life?
Joe: Yeah, and I’ve fought a lot of battles to make my films by the way. I mean, I made a film about pollution in the Amazon called Crude and Chevron was the subject of that movie and they came after me, subpoenaing my footage and I went through an extremely costly lawsuit with them. Crude, the movie cost $1.2 million and Crude, the lawsuit cost $1.3 million. So, I know what rich, powerful interests can do when they want to get their way. You know, whether it’s courage or stupidity I have not shied away from taking on hard stories. When I feel like you got to shine a light on something, you just got to do it.
And so, we started off this project probably about a year—just talking about it and planning it—a year before his arrest. Because at the time the whole point was, we were going to tell the story that now everyone learned when he was arrested but nobody knew this story. When we started the project, we were concerned for our safety, we were concerned about how to convince victims to come forward. Because the victims for decades, you know, their attempts to speak out had been crushed or they had signed a settlement agreement. So, they were scared to death to talk so it was a hard project to pull off.
Rebecca: I’m curious though about Lisa Bryant’s helming the project. I’m used to seeing you in the director slot. How did that relationship work? What was that collaboration like with her?
Joe: I think Lisa did an amazing job, I’m so proud of her. We decided we wanted to do a very victim focused show. To be very sensitive to the victims and to not dwell overly on the Epstein narrative but rather to focus on the stories of these brave survivors. And for me it was a fun way to kind of branch out my career. Usually I’m the executive producer and the director of my own shows so it was interesting for me to try. It was a great experience both in terms of her being the right director, I think she made connections with these women that I might not have made. I think the women were very comfortable with her and might not have been so with me because of the nature of the stories that they had to tell. So, I thought it worked out really well. I think she grew a lot as a filmmaker and I think I grew a lot as a filmmaker because it allowed me to, you know, have a different kind of a role.
Rebecca: You know, I think you really capture in this film, really the moment where it felt like the Me Too conversation was going to change everything. I mean, 2017, 2018 we saw prominent arrests, we saw the downfall of prominent men professionally who had engaged in misconduct. I know that as a woman I felt like, “Oh, my God, like something’s actually happening here.” But I think in the last year, year and a half, it does feel like there’s now a backlash that is pushing these conversations back into the corner again. And even as a woman, when I hear a man, even a well-meaning man, like in a film like this talk about how having his daughters makes him think differently about it. I’m like, “You’re also just a person, you know, you shouldn’t have to have a daughter to want to have this conversation.” And I’m curious, when you decided to embark upon this project, you know, are you hoping that people will watch this, through the lens of the Epstein story want to continue this conversation and have it actually, as you said, move the needle in a more permanent way?
Joe: Absolutely, I mean, you know, one of the many positive things about the Me Too movement is it encouraged these women, who have been silent for so long, to finally come forward. And for me, the two things that I want to make people always talk about is human trafficking because it’s at epidemic proportions and abuses in the criminal justice system. You know, we live in a country that has 5% of the world’s population yet we have 25% of the world’s prison population, full of people who shouldn’t be there. And the number one issue that needs to be reformed is it’s a system driven by money. If you have the money to defend yourself you get a sweetheart deal like Jeffrey Epstein. If you don’t have the money to defend yourself you end up being wrongfully convicted like Damien Echols in Paradise Lost. So, for me, these are issues I have cared about before the Me Too movement and hopefully the Me Too movement won’t go away because there are issues that I think with regard to abuse of women by powerful men, that’s something that’s finally getting reconciled with.
And I agree with you, there is some backlash and some pushback. But from my standpoint, you always have to believe the victim and take the victim seriously. And this show, I couldn’t be underscoring that point enough. These women represent hundreds of women who were abused and who just were not listened to. And the people in power not only allowed somebody of power and wealth to indulge in his sick proclivities but in doing so totally denied the victim experience. And that is ultimately what the Me Too movement is about is honoring the victim, listening to the victim and supporting the victim. And so, these are conversations that I hope this series will inspire and that we’ll continue to have in this society because it’s decades and decades and decades of human behavior that needs to change.
Rebecca: Well, Joe Berlinger, your work never fails to either change something or teach us something. Speaking for myself, I know it’s taught me a lot. I can’t thank you enough for talking to me about Jeffrey Epstein: Filthy Rich. I think this will go down as yet another film that teaches people a lot and perhaps makes some change so thanks a lot for talking to me about it.
Joe: Thank you so much, I really appreciate the opportunity.
[Music]
Rebecca: That’s it for this week’s episode. Thanks so much again to Lisa Bryant and Joe Berlinger. If you want to hear more of my takes on true crime and how we cover it in the media, check out my other podcast, Crime Writers On. Each week on that show we break down true crime documentaries, podcasts and the latest in pop culture. If you like You Can’t Make This Up, please subscribe to, rate and review this show and share it with friends. Find us on Apple Podcast, Stitcher, Google Play, Spotify and wherever else you get your podcasts. And stay tuned for our next episode on season two of the series I Am a Killer. You Can’t Make This Up is a production of Netflix. Our music is by Hansdale Hsu. I’m Rebecca Lavoie, thanks so much for listening.
[Music]