Comedian Matt Bellassai talks with the team behind Evil Genius, Trey Borzillieri, executive producer/co-director, and Barbara Shroeder, writer/co-director. Evil Genius: The True Story of America’s Most Diabolical Bank Heist is a four part Netflix docuseries about a man who goes to deliver a pizza, but gets a bomb strapped to his neck and sent on a scavenger hunt to rob a bank. Trey and Barbara discuss what it was like to open a cold case, interview conspirators in the crime, and find out details no one else has. Plus, Trey and Barbara reveal what they're watching on Netflix.
Comedian Matt Bellassai talks with the team behind Evil Genius, Trey Borzillieri, executive producer/co-director, and Barbara Shroeder, writer/co-director. Evil Genius: The True Story of America’s Most Diabolical Bank Heist is a four part Netflix docuseries about a man who goes to deliver a pizza, but gets a bomb strapped to his neck and sent on a scavenger hunt to rob a bank. Trey and Barbara discuss what it was like to open a cold case, interview conspirators in the crime, and find out details no one else has. Plus, Trey and Barbara reveal what they're watching on Netflix.
Rae: Welcome to You Can’t Make This Up, a new companion podcast from Netflix.
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Rae: I’m Rae Votta, and I’m hosting this week’s episode. Every other week on You Can’t Make This Up, we feature a new interviewer discussing a different Netflix series or film with their special guests. And all of the stories are surprisingly true, even this week’s show, which is truly unbelievable. That’s right. We’re talking about Evil Genius, the true story of America’s most diabolical bank heist. And here to tell us what it’s all about is Matt Bellassai. Matt is a comedian, author, and host of the podcast Unhappy Hour. Before we get into his interview with the show’s executive producer and co-director Trey Borzillieri and writer and co-director Barbara Schroeder, we wanted to get a quick rundown of how Matt felt watching the series. Matt will be joined by his producer, Bari Finkel. Remember, there are spoilers ahead. All right. Take it away, Matt.
Matt: All right. My producer, Bari Finkel and I watched all four part of Evil Genius on Netflix, and we are going to attempt to summarize it now. Are you ready, Bari?
Bari: Oh, I’m ready, Matt.
Matt: All right. We open on Erie, Pennsylvania, which is named after the lake and also the native American tribe and not the word meaning uncanny or abnormal, even though that would be appropriate because this story is weird as fuck. So a pizza delivery man named Brian Wells leaves Mama Mia Pizzeria to deliver two pizzas. An hour later, he walks into a bank with this really cool steampunk rifle shaped like a cane, and it would be totally badass if this wasn’t a real life bank robbery and also if he didn’t have an actual bomb strapped to his neck. Not a fake bomb, a real one. To make it even weirder, he’s carrying a bunch of meticulously written instructions for how to rob the bank of $250,000 along with details of a scavenger hunt that would lead to the keys that would unlock the bomb around his neck.
Bari: Sounds like a fun time.
Matt: He gets away with $8,000, but police quickly apprehend him, except they don’t really know what to do with him. And they wait too long, and in full view of the police and a bunch of gathered news cameras, the bomb explodes and kills him. Now, police are baffled because, surely, nobody would strap a live bomb to their own neck. But, if he didn’t do it, who was involved and why? Why? Three days later, a second pizza delivery man, Robert Pinetti, is found dead in his home after an apparent overdose.
Bari: I honestly forgot about that.
Matt: He’s never connected to the crime, but he’d been acting weird since the murder, so people think some funny business is going on. Then, a month later, a dude named Bill Rothstein calls the police to say some funny business has indeed been going on. Bill tells the police there’s a dead guy, James Roden, in his freezer in his garage. Bill says his ex-girlfriend, Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong, is the one who killed James Roden, the guy in the freezer, and Bill helped clean up the scene and put the body in the freezer. Now, Bill says he wants police involved because he’s scared of Marjorie, but what does this have to do with the bank robbery?
Bari: What?
Matt: Well, seemingly nothing, except Bill Rothstein, in a note he wrote before attempting suicide, said, “FYI, none of this is about the bank robbery,” which leads investigators to be like, “Okay. But like why did you even bring up the bank robbery?” Also—surprise, surprise—Bill Rothstein and Marjorie live right down the street from where Brian Wells was supposed to deliver his pizzas.
Bari: Coincidence?
Matt: Maybe. Allegedly.
Bari: Well, I don't know [Goofy voice].
Matt: So investigators grant Bill Rothstein immunity in exchange for his testimony against Marjorie, and then Marjorie is sentenced to 7 to 20 years in prison for the murder of James Roden, the guy in the freezer. But eventually, Marjorie starts telling the truth, her version of the truth about the bank robbery. She says she helped supply materials for the bomb, but it was Bill Rothstein who was the mastermind of the whole shebang. Bill Rothstein eventually dies of cancer, but maintains until the end that it was Marjorie who was the evil genius behind it all. Oh, oh, a title tie-in.
Bari: Whoa.
Matt: Then there’s a dude named Ken Barnes, aka Cocaine Ken. Someone turns him in after he reveals details of the crime, that Marjorie wanted Ken to kill her dad so she could inherit all of his money. The bank robbery was just to get enough money to pay for the hit job because hit jobs aren’t free. Hence, a motive. Marjorie and Ken are eventually charged for the crimes with Bill Rothstein and Brian Wells indicted as conspirators. Ken pleads guilty. Marjorie doesn’t, and she’s eventually convicted, but the question remains. Was Brian Wells, who was basically publicly executed, actually part of the conspiracy or just a pizza delivery man at the wrong place at the wrong time? That’s when we meet Jessica Hoopsick, aka Number One White Girl. That’s how she signs off on her text messages.
Bari: And how I will be from now on.
Matt: She’s a drug addict and a prostitute whose clients include Cocaine Ken and Brian Wells. Jessica admits to the documentarians that she introduced the group of conspirators to Brian as someone that they could easily manipulate into doing their dirty work, exonerating Brian Wells but implicating herself. So Brian Wells is innocent, Ken Barnes is still in prison, Marjorie died in prison, Bill Rothstein is still dead, and Jessica had a baby that might have been fathered by Brian Wells, the pizza delivery man himself. Basically, this shit is cray.
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Bari: Cray, cray.
Matt: And I need a drink.
Bari: Amen.
Rae: What a journey we all just went on. And now, let’s dive even deeper into the show with the people who made it. Barbara and Trey now join Matt to talk about making the series.
Matt: After watching all four episodes of Evil Genius, I have so many questions and, thankfully, I have the geniuses behind the docuseries here with me. We have writer and director Barbara Schroeder and executive producer and co-director Trey Borzillieri, whose voice you’ll recognize from the series. Welcome to You Can’t Make This Up.
Trey: Thank you.
Barbara: Thanks for having us.
Matt: So let’s start from the beginning. We’ll start with Trey. What were you doing sort of before you saw this story, when it all started in 2003?
Trey: I was in New York City working a variety of jobs, working in entertainment and also working in financial services, you know, living what one could call sort of the starving artist existence. And in college—I went to the University of Miami—the student theater on campus called Cosford Cinema was playing a documentary called Paradise Lost, which was the first of the West Memphis Three case documentaries. And I was just utterly blown away by it, so it was really the motivating factor for me trying to do a documentary and make one that could have such a participatory journey for the audience in an experience like that.
Matt: Hm-hmm [affirmative]. What was the sort of thing about this particular story that made you think this is the one that I want to like get up, go to Pennsylvania, start kind of learning as much as I can about it?
Trey: Yeah. So, you know, I was in Buffalo, New York, that day. I had been there for a while. My mother had passed away, and I was collecting her things. And that night, the last night, actually, you know, having finished gathering together all of her stuff and putting it into storage, I heard on the news they came across this story. And it was just captivating because it was being reported that this bank robber had gone in and used a live device and then exploded in the process of robbing the bank. And for me, it was just so compelling. It was like, oh my God, here’s this man. He was so desperate that he actually used a live bomb and died in the process, and that was just so captivating to me.
And then a few days later, information started to trickle out about the crime and that, actually, at the scene, there was evidence that supported the notion that he was put up to do this, so the story started growing from there. And a month later, we learn about the frozen body in the freezer at Rothstein’s house, which is located directly next to the dirt road where Brian Wells made his last delivery. And, you know, my jaw just dropped. It was just, oh my God. And I’m a big fan of horror movies and thrillers, and Seven was one of my favorite movies. And just hearing about that dirt road, it was shocking, and I knew that this was a special story.
Matt: And then we sort of skip ahead 10 years, and Barbara becomes a part of the investigation. Barbara, how did you get involved?
Barbara: Yeah. Trey had been working diligently on gathering, you know, just this treasure trove of evidence and information, and he was overwhelmed. So he had seen a film that I did before this, Talhotblond, that involved another case of—had a big twist involved in it and had interesting characters in it, and he brought it to me, and we started working together. But what was so interesting when he brought it to me, I said, “Oh, yeah. I kind of remember that case, you know. Whatever happened?”
And he started telling me the story, and I think, for the next two hours, I just was slack-jawed and listening to what he was saying. Because you’d heard that people were in prison because of this, but what was left over was that this was an FBI major case that was technically closed. They had a couple people in prison, but from what Trey was telling me, it was unsolved. And he said, you know, “They don’t know for sure who the mastermind was,” and then I started having these what I call “wait-what” moments. Like, “Wait. What? They don’t know for sure who the mastermind was? They don’t know for sure who wrote the notes?”
And there was the big overarching question which was all about the pizza guy’s innocence. Like, was he in on it or not? And it just was mind boggling to me that these questions had not been answered, so we kind of joined forces. And I’m a seasoned investigative journalist, and Trey was like the citizen journalist, and he impressed me more than a lot of colleagues that I’ve worked with. So it was a really great journey to go down that path together and try and get the answers to those questions that needed to be answered, not just for, you know, the sake of curiosity but also for the Town of Erie and for Brian Wells’ family. I mean, they had some big questions that had not been answered for them.
Matt: Yeah. The story is sort of 15 years old now. Trey, you’ve been following it since day one. Barbara, now, it’s been five years, I guess, that you’ve been a part of it. What made you finally say this story is sort of complete enough that we’re ready to make this documentary? You know, why release it now?
Barbara: Well, a funny backstory to that, when Trey first brought the story to me, I’m like, “Oh, we can get this done in a year, year and a half.” And then it took—like, every time we would open up a door and get some information—and Trey had these great relationships. That’s one of the tenets of good journalism. He had relationships with people that he built, and when he would open up a door, there would be another revelation, and we’d have to go down another path. So we just—the story just kind of took on a life of its own, the investigation.
Trey: Yeah. And it just took really 10 years to get your hands around the story. And, you know, because it went cold, there was always something on the horizon. And then even after Marjorie’s federal trial, there were many more questions than answers. So it wasn’t really until, you know, these breakthroughs that you see in the film, you know, especially with Jessica, you know, that didn’t come till much later, and once you have that, you know, once you reach Jessica and her story, you can look back and see the whole case in a new light.
Matt: Yeah. To me, one of the most consequential kind of moments is Jessica’s confession. So we learn from her that, you know, Brian Wells, not only was he innocent, but that she was sort of the one that brought him into the fold. I’m curious to know, like, what goes through your head when you are about to get this confession from her? Like, what is that like to kind of go through that moment when you have this key integral part of the story that is about to be just given to you?
Trey: Well, you know, you have to—it was a long time coming, and so, you know, the case is what brought us to her. And so, you know, to step back, you know, when the indictments came, the federal indictments on Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong and Kenneth Barnes, there was a search warrant that was unsealed at that time, and that was a search warrant of Ken Barnes. And deep within those pages revealed Jessica, and that was the first time that the public found out about her. And in reading that, I had a hunch that she had more information, and so it took a very long time to make that hunch turn into something tangible, and, you know, tangible is obviously what you see in the film.
Matt: Yeah. The other thing that I was curious about was whether you talked to Brian’s family after Jessica’s confession and whether they had any, you know, reaction to basically him sort of being let off the hook.
Barbara: Yeah. I actually called them. I talked to one of the sisters and one of the brothers, and Brian’s mother is still alive. And we wanted to include them in the documentary. The doors were always open to them, but I think they were suffering from media fatigue, and they were so, you know—all these years, they’d been saying Brian’s innocent, and nobody’s been listening to them. And so they never fully cooperated with us, but when I talked to his sister, I said, “Look. We’ve got some compelling information from Jessica,” and I actually played a little clip of the confession over the phone to her, and she got very quiet and was very still.
And I said, “Please tell your mother that we have this information, and we’d love to talk to you and get your reaction.” And she still wouldn’t—didn’t want to engage. I’m not sure if she was shocked to hear that or if she was worried that there would be somebody else trying to, you know, another reporter trying to just get their emotions as opposed to really moving the story forward. We’d love to know if they saw it and what they think.
Matt: And one of the things that struck me was, for how crafty they were, I still can’t wrap my head around what the end game was for the robbery. Like, I can’t imagine that this robbery would have gone off well. Like, there’s no world in which that would have worked.
Barbara: Yeah. It doesn’t seem rational, and it doesn’t seem like they really did it for the money, you know. And who believes that a bank has $250,000 in cash laying around? I mean, they didn’t do their homework on that one if they were thinking they were going to get that, so it’s as crazy as the people who were involved in it, you know. They were all very intricate, convoluted people, and that reflects in this case that they pulled off.
Matt: Yeah. And I think there was another interview where I saw you both talking about kind of the fact that, for as smart as they thought that they were, they really weren’t. I mean, they weren’t as smart as they actually thought they were. They liked to think that they were the smartest people in the room, but there were these kind of fundamental flaws in their plan.
Barbara: Yeah. You brought up one of our favorite quotes where Bill Rothstein, you know, sits in the state trooper’s barracks and says, “Hey, I’m the smartest guy in the room. I want to tell you that right off the bat.” I mean, what an opening salvo that is to the whole case. Like, that must’ve been, you know, pretty insulting to the investigators.
Matt: That is also one of my favorite lines. It’s just so immediately condescending and amazing.
Barbara: And because we’re so interested in hearing people’s reactions, how did you—how did Marjorie resonate with you? What was her—what did you think of her when you first met her? Was she off-putting? Was she intriguing?
Matt: I could talk about her for probably longer than the entire series. I mean, I’m also just fascinated by characters like her to begin with, and she just really delivered. For how kind of erratic her thoughts are, for how smart you could tell that she is—you know, one of the things I was interested in was that she seemed to find some solace in talking to you, Trey, but also kind of seemed constantly aware that you were probably telling an unforgiving story about her. How did you kind of walk the line between having compassion for her but staying objective?
Trey: Yeah. I mean, you know, from the start, I was basically horrified by her, you know. It was a fine line. You know, when you talk to somebody that long, it’s easy to sort of dwell in a safe place, and, you know, that was what we did. And because, you know, in essence, she’s a narcissist, it was never hard to get her to talk. She was just always talking. But what became challenging was to try to channel her towards the subject that I wanted to get into. It was like she had such a “seek and destroy” mentality, you know. She was always trying to manipulate, you know, her agenda in everyone she faced.
I mean, even when we would sit together in the prisons when I would visit her, you know, it was like she was constantly scanning the room, trying to figure out how she would best dwell in this place, you know, whether it was tackling the vending machine where she would want, you know, everything you can imagine to snack on: candy bars, potato chips, pizza, chicken-parm sandwiches, you know, just, you know, more, more, more. She was the most unique person I’ll probably ever encounter.
Barbara: Well, and it was interesting to watch Trey’s relationship with her. And just as an aside, I actually—I wrote a few letters to Marjorie, and she was like a buzzsaw when she wrote back, and I thought, I’m not communicating with her anymore. That can be Trey’s area because it was really—it was intimidating, and she was, you know, powerful and “give me this and I’ll give you that, but you have to give me this.” And I realized, in watching how Trey so expertly navigated her and then also seeing the other relationships that Marjorie had with men, I mean, there’s this theory in the world of mental health where people that are sociopaths and narcissists, like Marjorie, that they look for and search out—they want—they really click and connect with empaths, empathetic people.
Trey’s a very empathetic person, very easy to talk to, so she kind of gets her claws into people like that. And just to watch her and to hear her once she starts to manipulate, and the way she, if she doesn’t like what you’re saying—like, at one point, you probably heard it in the series where she says, “Trey, I’ll sue your ‘effin’ balls off.” And it’s like, whoa! I mean, it’s one—just say, “Don’t do it,” you know. It goes to such extremes. So it’s fascinating to watch that narcissist sociopath feeding on or trying to get the empath and almost sucking the life out of them. It’s interesting. A lot of people that see this say to us, “Hey, I kind of know somebody like that in my life who, you know, I’m nice to them, and they constantly want my attention and want to convince me of things and want things from me.” And it’s interesting that people find shades of Marjorie in real life.
Matt: Yeah. I wonder; was there any point where you were afraid of Marjorie? Like, were you afraid of what she might do to you, you know? When she makes that threat, did it feel real?
Trey: Well, yeah. I mean, you know, she—it’s funny you mention real. You know, she—part of her agenda was being real, you know. She said it numerous times. She always put her best real person out there, even when she knew there were times where, whatever, you know, if she said something, it could detrimental to her. She was so impulsive that that didn’t matter. And, in her history, she has a track record of doing impulsive things that in the end brought her harm. But, you know, going back to the beginning with her, when I started communicating with her, she hadn’t been ruled publicly as a suspect in the case. And I was very apprehensive, not only because of her, but also because I had a feeling that there were other people involved in the case, other co-conspirators that were not learned of yet in the investigation.
So it did cross my mind that, you know, if I did carry on with her and she felt like I was getting too close or, you know, that she was perhaps a phone call or a letter away from another co-conspirator on the outside that the investigation didn’t know about yet, and that concerned me greatly. It concerned me because, you know, I didn’t know. Maybe she would send somebody after me. You know, later, I interviewed some other former, actually, cellmates of her and people that actually lived in the same cell with Marjorie, and one person in particular shared that Marjorie was calling up ideas of, you know, could she execute hits on people outside of prison? And, you know, when I learned that later, I was like, wow, you know, in the beginning, when I had that sort of feeling, you know, it proved to be true.
Barbara: We were also very cognizant of the fact that we were dealing with a woman who was deemed mentally ill, so there was this fine line because you don’t want to, you know, we didn’t want to like—I don’t know what the right term is here—like misuse that or misrepresent that. But the way that she would—she would even use her mental illness to try and seduce us. She would say things like, “I know I’m mentally ill, but I need this, and I’m not street smart. I know I’m bipolar.”
So the level of manipulation that she could reach, where she would use her own mental illness to try to manipulate people and to lure them in, you know, watching her try to do that with Trey and other people and watching him withstand that was great because he finally was able to take the confidence that he’d gotten from Marjorie and really confront her towards the end of their relationship, which was something he didn’t do for years. He was very steady, and he waited for the right time and the right moment, and then he went for the truth. And I hope you agree that he was able to get something that nobody else had been able to get.
Matt: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I keep going back to just, yeah, how unsettling of a person she was. I mean, even before I saw in the final—because I had no idea that she is not alive anymore, and when we were watching it, I was like, oh God, I’m even afraid to ask questions about her. What happens if she listens to this podcast and then thinks I asked the wrong question and finds me?
Trey: Oh, yeah.
Matt: Yeah. The fact that you got, you know, to ask her some of those tough questions in the end is amazing.
Trey: Yeah. And there was this, you know—this other fear factor, you know, with her was her belief in voodoo and what she referred to as psychic karma of the universe. And, you know, that was a whole other bag of tricks for her, and she believed that she could unleash this voodoo on whoever she wanted and, you know, was convinced. You see her, you know, a great clip in the documentary, you know, she was convinced that she had a lot of success in bringing death to people on the outside.
Barbara: Yeah. She put the voodoo on, the psychic karma, on Bill Rothstein, and whether or not that might have been revisionist history, that after she died, she wanted to take credit for it because she was a credit taker. There was a great line. It was in the POPSUGAR article. Brinton Parker, I think, was the reporter. She had a great phrase for Marjorie. She called it “revoltingly magnetic.” I think that really captures—yeah.
Matt: Yeah.
Trey: Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh, that’s a great way to put it. You know, in her federal trial, when the jury went into deliberation, there was this moment, and it was like, oh my God, can you imagine if she gets acquitted again? And for me, I was like, oh my gosh, I think if that happened, the sun and moon would reverse positions.
Matt: Yeah. One of the other elements that, you know, sets the whole series apart is the fact that, you know, the central villain is a woman. And even, you know, Jessica, as a central character, is a woman, and we don’t often get to see women in true crime stories kind of behaving as the villain. Did it change the way you approached the story in any way?
Barbara: Well, it’s what made me far more interested in doing the story because that was yet another unusual aspect of the series was that there was a potential female mastermind. And there was one moment where I, in going through all of Marjorie’s, you know, letters and audio with Trey and her history, where I actually felt sorry for her. And that was the moment when she’s 23 years old. She’s smart; she’s successful. And she takes herself to see a therapist because she doesn’t understand what’s going on in her mind. She knows something’s wrong, and she can’t—she says the reason she goes to see a therapist is because she can’t find gratifying satisfaction in relationships.
So that is a very human moment, and I did have a lot of empathy for her because that was the beginning of the decline of Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong. And, yeah, she was high strung before that and, you know, energetic and, you know, a whirlwind. But imagine that you know in your 20s that something’s wrong with you, and you can’t get help, and nobody’s helping you, and your parents are just saying, “Oh, you’re going to be fine. Here’s some more money. Go buy something.” And that must have been a gut-wrenching moment for her and maybe the last moment that she was in total touch with reality because that’s when the decline started.
Matt: Did she change your mind about anything when you were talking with her? Was there any point where, you know, there was something that you thought about her that she managed to convince you otherwise?
Barbara: That’s a good question.
Trey: Yeah. That’s a great question. Yeah. She was of the opinion that Robert Pinetti was not involved, and she stuck to that. And so, you know, going into my relationship with her, I was under the impression, like everyone else, that, you know, it was being implied in the investigation that Robert Pinetti was connected to the case.
Barbara: It was the second pizza delivery man who was found dead. Yeah.
Trey: And, you know, Marjorie shed light on that the whole way through, that she did not believe that he was involved.
Barbara: Yeah. And that was another manipulative device that Marjorie employs. I call it, like, a truthful liar, where there’s a tiny bit of truth in the middle of all the lies, and then she, you know, tries to stand on that. “Hey, I’m telling you the truth about Robert Pinetti” or her level of involvement in the heist, and she tries to, you know, move you off of your position by throwing a truth bomb at you and trying to get you to ignore the fact that, you know, she’s so guilty.
Trey: And her reaction and her, you know—the journey with her about Jessica was there from the start, you know. She was always concerned about Jessica, you know. In some of my first phone calls with her, she brought up Jessica out of the blue, you know. So Jessica was always in the back of her mind. And for me, you know, now, looking back at it in hindsight, that was really—strengthens, I think, the credibility of Jessica.
Barbara: Yeah. She was playing offense. She was, you know, trying to see at what point that would pop its head up and be an issue for her.
Trey: Yeah. And that’s a great point that, you know, that was a huge unveiling, you know, in the relationship with Marjorie. You could see how far ahead she was trying to get, you know, in front of the case, in front of the information that was released, in front of the news coverage, everything. She was always trying to be so many beats ahead of the story. That was fascinating.
Matt: Trey, you sort of talked about how some of your friends and family kind of worried about how much you were communicating with her and whether you were getting in a little too deep. Did you ever worry about that yourself? Did you think, like, oh, maybe I need to take a step back and take a breath?
Trey: Yeah, for sure. You know, you go—I went into this project with such blind faith, and, you know, early on, it was clear that it was really tough to get any information. And so reaching out to Marjorie was just that, you know. It was, you know, necessity is the mother of invention, and, you know, I was trying to get information, and she was one of the only people that I could identify within the case who was alive.
And so, you know, I had never communicated with anyone in prison. I had never been to a prison, you know. These were all firsts. And family, friends and family, wondering, you know, what are you doing? Why are you communicating with this person? And then everyone learned that she had killed multiple people, and it was just bizarre, and it took a lot of sort of—what would you say?—intestinal fortitude to keep it going. And it was exhausting, but I just hoped that eventually it would pay off.
Barbara: Yeah. There were many times when we would sit down to discuss the case, and Trey had just gotten off the phone with Marjorie for, you know, talking as long as she could keep him on the phone. And he just looked exhausted and like he’d run 50 miles. And then 10 minutes later, Marjorie would call again, and Trey would pick up the phone just because he always thought, like, maybe she’s going to say something. So your fortitude was amazing.
Matt: Yeah. I can’t even imagine. I mean, I feel like I had take a walk after I watched it, and that was only, you know, 4 hours’ worth, not 15 years’ worth, so more power to you.
Trey: Yeah. You know, it’s all dark subject matter, and, you know, I would go into Erie and be filming and doing interviews for a few days. And probably after about three or four days, you know, you just were like, oh my God, I need a break from this, you know. The material’s so dark. It can be so disturbing, and it was a heck of a journey.
Matt: Well, speaking of the darkness, I think one of the more jarring images is the bomb detonating around Brian Wells’ neck. I wonder if there was—what the discussion was like around how to kind of use that footage.
Barbara: Yeah. We knew from day one that we didn’t ever want to show the entire explosion, which, you know, it lives online in, you know, dark places. And we had a shoutout to our editor, Alex Calleros, because he was so pivotal in helping shape this story and the nuance. I mean, we went over that opening segment, where you really don’t see the full explosion, but we went over that frame by frame by frame, and we tested it, and we showed it to people. Like, at what point is it too much? And we wanted—we don’t show it. I mean, it’s jarring in the opening sequence, in the first 10 minutes, but, if you look carefully, we cut away the minute that you see the first flash. So, very well edited because it’s effective, and it makes you realize in an instant the horror and the, you know, the wrenching death that this poor soul had to go through.
But when we use it again at the end, we never wanted to use it gratuitously. But we do use it again at the end, albeit blurred, because we wanted to reinforce one of the biggest takeaways from this series, which is how is it possible that someone was so, as Trey always says, publicly executed—this soul was publicly executed—and no one was ever charged with his murder? And I defy anybody to look at that last shot and say, “Nobody should have been charged with murder” because it’s just unconscionable that, you know, somebody got away with murder. Yeah, there were a couple of co-conspirators put in prison for armed robbery, you know, armed robbery with a device, conspiracy, but that’s pretty shocking.
Matt: Well, having told it now, besides being entertained and informed by the series, what is sort of the one takeaway that you hope people walk away with?
Barbara: Well, I mean, we didn’t bring up one of the co-conspirators very much here. Floyd Stockton, who was Bill Rothstein’s roommate, the guy who was accused of molesting an underage girl who was disabled. I mean, here’s a guy who put the collar on Brian Wells and got full immunity and was never charged, so that’s kind of an interesting takeaway, the fact that—we would still love to know. Who really did write those notes, and who started it? Was it Marj or Bill who first said, “Here’s what we’re going to do, and here’s how we’re going to do it”?
And so these remaining questions, the takeaway is we still would love to get answers to those. We answered a few questions that remained, and this case just keeps giving. If you’re somebody who wants to dig into a case, dig into this one because we would love to pursue and find out, you know. I think the City of Erie would like to know the answers to these questions, and the family of Brian Wells deserves a lot of answers because what they went through is just beyond what any family should ever have to go through, to see someone they love die like that.
Trey: Yeah, absolutely. You know, we hope that this could spawn deeper questions, you know. If the investigation, you know, missed in essence the information that Jessica provides, you know, if they were wrong about Brian Wells’ culpability, then what else could they have been wrong about? And Floyd Stockton’s immunity, what was that based on? Was that based on, you know, lies, or was it based on truth? And it would be great to, you know, take a deeper dive into those questions and see what can be revealed, you know. In a way, it is a second chance at justice.
Matt: Well, I wonder, before I let you go, what happens next then? How do you kind of follow up on the story now that the series is out?
Barbara: Well, it’s interesting. Every other case that I’ve worked on, you kind of do it. You kind of tell the story, and then you move on. I’m still so intrigued by this case, and I think the same thing for Trey. It’s like it won’t let you go because there’s still that search, you know, for truth, so, you know, we’d be happy to do more. It’d be great to, you know, show some deeper dives into these characters because they’re such unique characters. And one of my favorite documentaries growing up was Grey Gardens, and Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong is Big Edie and Little Edie all rolled into one with, you know, a dash of crazy and evil. So it would be, you know, nice to maybe do some deeper dives and see what people are interested in that have watched this. Like, what do you want to know? Because we have a lot of information. We probably could have done 10 episodes, but—
Trey: Yeah. And one thing that’ll help is, you know, a big thank you to all the relationships that I was able to form early on, you know, that helped make this happen. You see, you know, law enforcement participating in the documentary. Many of those interviews are exclusive and first-time interviews. We couldn’t thank those gentlemen enough for participating and—including, you know, many attorneys that were involved in the case. Thankfully, those relationships are great, and it’s enabling us to, you know, if we’re lucky enough to have the opportunity, to do more.
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Matt: Yeah. Well, thank you both so much for, one, making the crazy show to begin with and for being on this show.
Barbara: Awesome. It was great to talk to you.
Trey: Thank you so much.
Rae: That was Matt Bellassai with Barbara Schroeder and Trey Borzillieri. And now, let’s hear from you. It’s time for a dramatic reading of your most dramatic social media reactions to Evil Genius.
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Female: This one is from @AlySemigran: “I’m only 20 minutes into Evil Genius, and I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve said, ‘What the fuck?’ ”
Male: @jluke428 says, “I had Bill Rothstein as a substitute teacher for three months in high school. I was not surprised that there was a body in his freezer. #EvilGenius.”
Female: This tweet is from @staceymiguel: “They need a sequel answering the question of why everyone was a hoarder. #EvilGenius.”
Rae: If you want to share your thoughts on any upcoming episodes, make sure to find us on Twitter, @cantmakethisup, or on Facebook at YouCantMakeThisUpNetflix. Before we let you go, we’ve got one more treat for you. You know the segment. It’s Whatcha Watching? It’s where we find out what the people who make these Netflix original series and films are watching on Netflix. This week, we asked Barbara and Trey for their new favorite shows.
Barbara: How about everything? I love Flint Town. I love The Confession Tapes. We just watched the Ally Wong special for Mother’s Day. That’s what I wanted to do on Mother’s Day with my daughter. Yeah. It’s just Netflix all the time.
Trey: Yeah. I just watched Shot In The Dark. I watched Wild Wild Country—
Barbara: Oh, yeah. We obsessed over that.
Trey: …which is fantastic. And I’m looking forward to watching Dark next.
Rae: And that’s it for this week’s episode. We’ll be back next Wednesday with a new series for you to add to your watchlist. You can find this show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Google Play, Spotify, and wherever else you get your podcasts. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review the show. It helps other people find it, and it also makes us feel all warm and fuzzy inside. You Can’t Make This Up is a production of Pineapple Street Media and Netflix, and our music is by Hansdale Hsu. I’m Rae Votta. Thanks for listening.
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