With 2018 coming to a close, we couldn’t help but think back on what a crazy year it’s been in the world of Netflix True Crime. We brought in two true crime fans to break down their favorite docuseries of 2018. Shane Madej and Ryan Bergara, co-hosts of BuzzFeed’s Unsolved, talk about the most memorable characters, scenes, and plot twists of Evil Genius, Making A Murderer Part Two, and The Staircase. After that, we get a phone call from Ma Anand Sheela. We met Sheela earlier this year in the hit docuseries, Wild Wild Country. Sheela fills us in on her relationship with the series, her family’s reaction, how she feels about Rajneeshpuram and more.
With 2018 coming to a close, we couldn’t help but think back on what a crazy year it’s been in the world of Netflix True Crime. We brought in two true crime fans to break down their favorite docuseries of 2018. Shane Madej and Ryan Bergara, co-hosts of BuzzFeed’s Unsolved, talk about the most memorable characters, scenes, and plot twists of Evil Genius, Making A Murderer Part Two, and The Staircase.
After that, we get a phone call from Ma Anand Sheela. We met Sheela earlier this year in the hit docuseries, Wild Wild Country. Sheela fills us in on her relationship with the series, her family’s reaction, how she feels about Rajneeshpuram and more.
Rae Votta [00:00:00] Welcome to you can't make this up a companion podcast from Netflix.
Rae Votta [00:00:07] I'm Rae Votta and your host for this week is here and "You Can't Make This Up." We bring an interviewers to talk about a different Netflix series and films with special guests. And all the stories are surprisingly true. This week. Is it true cinephile's delight. We're diving into "They'll Love Me When I'm Dead." A new documentary directed by Academy Award winning filmmaker Morgan Neville. "They'll Love Me When I'm Dead" chronicles the making of Orson Welles previously unfinished final film "The Other Side of The Wind" in case you haven't seen either yet.
Rae Votta [00:00:34] Both movies are available on Netflix and here to talk about everything Orson Welles is Morgan Neville and Karina Longworth. Karina host the beloved Hollywood history podcast "You Must Remember This" and released her new book just this week. It's called "Seduction: Sex, Lies and Stardom and Howard Hughes's Hollywood." Without further ado here's Karina and Morgan.
Karina [00:00:56] I'm here with Morgan Neville the Oscar winning director of "20 feet from Stardom" and the recent documentary blockbuster "Won't You Be My Neighbor." Morgan's latest film is "They'll Love Me When I'm Dead," which tells the story of the last film made by the legendary Orson Welles, "The Other Side of The Wind." Morgan thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. For people who don't know what is "The Other Side of The Wind".
Morgan [00:01:18] You're going to make me explain "The Other Side of The Wind." It's an almost unexplainable film. So Orson was made a movie called "The Other Side of The Wind" which he shot for six years. Edited for several years and never finished. And the film if I can do it justice is a film about a film director coming back to America after years of abroad who had been a once celebrated film director who comes back to make his final film and is unable to because of lack of funds. And this is exactly what happened in the course of making the film said the film in a way was Orson's autobiography of this last chapter of his life even though he hated for it to be described that way. But then to even get into what the film is itself which gets Byzantine is that the film is actually both the film that this film director was trying to make which is.
Karina [00:02:13] The fictional film director
Morgan [00:02:13] The fictional film director Jake Hannaford was name of the director played by John Houston kind of as a stand in for Orson Welles and then around this film that he was making that's inside of the movie is this assemblage of documentary footage that's all filmed at this birthday party. So it takes place on one day which is the birthday and final day of Jake Hannaford's life. So it's both a kind of a documentary assemblage wrapped around a kind of satirical version of Antonioni type European film that this film director was making. So it's a very very avant garde film. I mean and that's kind of what I wanted to explore that that Welles late in his career was actually doing the most avant garde work of his career.
Karina [00:03:03] Before you made this documentary what was your experience of of knowing about Orson Welles and your fandom of him?
[00:03:11] It was huge. I mean as most film lovers you know and filmmakers you know Welles is one of those towering figures but even really from my childhood Welles was a huge kind of figure in my household. So my dad was a huge film nut and I think we must have had the biggest Betamax collection west in Mississippi particularly focused on old Hollywood and some European particularly noir screwball all these genres that I devoured as a kid and I'd seen most of Welles films by the time I was 16 and he actually died of my 18th birthday.
Karina [00:03:53] Oh wow!
Morgan [00:03:53] And I remember very vividly being depressed on that day.
Karina [00:03:57] What a crazy rite of passage!
Morgan [00:03:59] I know it was I just I I remember where I was when I heard I remember everything about it. So even at that point he meant that much to me which is interesting but I never imagined I'd make a film about him.
Karina [00:04:10] So how did that come about?
Morgan [00:04:12] Well I mean there have there been piles of documentaries about Orson Welles and piles of biographies and I've watched and read many of them most of them but I didn't see a fresh story until I read Josh Karps's book: "Orson Welles's Last Movie". So Josh who's a producer on the film and a writer had written this book maybe four years ago and actually there's an excerpt in Vanity Fair in the beginning before the book was published. I read the excerpt. Couldn't get enough of it. The moment the book came out I read it and the entire time I was reading the book I just kept thinking 'oh my god if I could only see this footage!' So Orson shot this movie for six years he shot 10 movies worth of material and it ended up locked in a vault in Paris for 40 years. And I just kept thinking I would love to tell this last chapter of Orson's life which is the least understood chapter through this film he was making autobiographically and so I set about trying to do that. So what I found out was at that time Frank Marshall was trying to get the footage as he had been trying to get this footage out of a vault for decades. Frank who's a very well-known famous Hollywood producer had started as a production manager on this film "The Other Side of The Wind" for Orson and to him he had this was kind of a he had spent decades in trying to rescue this film. And when I contacted him he said: "Good news, In about six weeks we're going to have this footage out of the vault and we're actually going to try and finish the other side of the wind and we'll have all of the dailies and you can make a documentary we'll make the feature film and we'll be at Cannes in May.'
Morgan [00:05:50] Three years later I get a call from Frank saying we're going to get the footage. It's coming it's on its way from Paris. We'll be at Cannes next year. And you know my attitude was OK this is about the 20th time I'd heard this and I didn't didn't believe it. In fact nobody really believed it until the footage was actually sitting here in Los Angeles.
Karina [00:06:16] Was there ever any thought because your documentary ends basically with Welles's death and it doesn't cover this reconstruction process was there any thought to having a camera crew covering what they were doing and telling him that part of the story ?
Morgan [00:06:30] Not for me. And Frank did end up filming all that with Phillip and there's featurette that I think will be on Netflix. You can see the restoration process and things like that. For me as a filmmaker Welles is my hero you know and and I it's funny because I'd made a film many years ago about Hank Williams and so much stuff happened after Hank Williams died in the wake of his death. Dueling widows who both claim they were Mrs. Hank Williams, the Grand Ole Opry claiming that he hadn't been fired and he was coming back the next week. I mean the mythologizing of Hank Williams and the story of what happened in his after he died was huge. But in making that film I realized that once Hank died the film is over. Yeah that that's a different film.
Morgan [00:07:17] And so I from that lesson I knew 100 percent that once Orson died my film was over. That's a different film to talk about trying to restore this film and everything else. But my film was really about this last 15 year chapter of Orson's life.
Karina [00:07:32] Yeah I know that earlier in your career you made a documentary about the Houstons which I haven't seen but did you get into the "The Other Side of The Wind" at all and researching and doing stuff on John Houston?
Morgan [00:07:43] And knew about it but no I mean there was no footage to access at the time and but Houston was somebody else who I really admired. I mean like Orson a completely unique person in the history of Hollywood and somebody who also straddles lots of things between writing, directing ,acting and living. You know just having a persona that's so oversized in that way. And I think that's of course why Orson wanted John to play this role and he kept saying if it's not John it's me because there's nobody else on that list. You know there's nobody else you could think of who's lived that kind of life and know lives in that kind of cultural space that had somebody like a John Houston or Orson Welles would.
Karina [00:08:25] Yeah. And I think that that's one of the attractions for a lot of cinephiles like me and you to the other side of the wind is that it's kind of this supergroup you know it's like this team up of these great filmmakers who are also great personalities. And then you also have Bogdanovich and there are too whose somebody that I've always been fascinated with and whose work I've always found really interesting and particularly that time period of the 70s when you know he has this he's kind of this bridge figure where he has these relationships with the previous generation that two or three generations of filmmakers. But then he is also considered one of these new Hollywood you know young artists.
Morgan [00:08:59] It's so interesting and I've always been a huge fan of Peter's and his books. I've adored who the hell made it. And you know I've read that book multiple times you know. So his understanding of old Hollywood and the way he looked up to people like Orson was and is adoring so you know he started by doing an interview book with Orson the book he started the book in 1968. It ended up coming out years afterwards and died. So it never happened in the course of making it. And it's even discussed in "The Other Side of The Wind." So what Orson does in "The Other Side of The Wind" is bases the central relationship in the film between this director Jake Hannaford played by John Houston and his protege based on Peter Bogdanovich the character Otterlake is the name and originally when they were shooting the film Orson cast Rich Little in the role of Otterlake in part because Peter Bogdanovich was famous for doing imitations. And when Orson met Rich Little he said well you do imitations you kind of look like Peter or have you star this role and what happens is virtually when they were done shooting Rich Little's part, Rich vanishes from the set. And there are many conflicting reports as to why that happened. And then Peter comes in to save the day and assumes the role of OtterLake based on Peter.
Morgan [00:10:24] So it's incredibly complicated that way and where it gets really complicated is the essential tension in the relationship between Hanover's and Otterlake is one of this protegé who's usurping his his mentor and and who ultimately betrays him.
Morgan [00:10:45] And really what's what's interesting is that Peter had so much love for Orson and a few really the things he did for or were above and beyond. I mean not only did Orson move into his house and continue to live and work and shoot in the house for years. But you know another story we didn't end up putting into the film. But it's interesting as the Pauline Kael relationship too. So you know Pauline Kael writes this famous barn burning piece called Raising Cain in the early 70s essentially arguing that Orson did not deserve the Oscar for writing Citizen Kane because Herman Mankiewicz largely wrote it on his own.
Karina [00:11:26] And basically give a Mankiewicz credit for being the artist of the film in the French auteur sense.
Morgan [00:11:32] Yeah and it's interesting and I'm actually a big Mankiewicz fan and I've read books about him. But you her only source was John Houseman who at that point hated Orson and she never asked Orson for any corroborating or any kind of other interview about it. So and the real story behind that is that Pauline Kael's nemesis was Andrew Sarris, the kind of leading American critic who is arguing for this auteur theory. And she said Well the easiest way to get him is to take down the biggest tour star of all time which is Orson. So there were all the politics happening and the film criticism level yeah. And so when she writes this piece Orson asked Peter to write this full throated defense of him which he does in Esquire magazine. And for Peter who's one of the hot up and coming film directors in America to take on the top film critic in the country on behalf of his mentor is no small ask Anderson apart and he does it again with Charles Higham a British critic who writes a critical piece. And Peter writes a very strong attack on Higham defending Orson and does these things again and again. So it's odd that Orson would see Peter's character as betraying him. And this is where we get into the kind of psychology of Orson.
Morgan [00:12:57] And in a way he was writing something into the relationship that he was predicting rather than actually existed because Orson believed that everybody betrays everybody else ultimately.
Karina [00:13:09] I wonder have you seen this shorter film that Welles made sometimes it's called Portrait of Gina. Sometimes it's called Viva Italia.
Morgan [00:13:17] I have seen it.
Karina [00:13:18] It's about Gina Lollobrigida. I watched it for the first time recently because I was doing some research about her and it's ostensibly a movie a short film that he was trying to sell to TV as a TV pilot. And about these these Italian stars including Gina Lollobrigida. But it's actually kind of his very bitter essay about not being appreciated in his own country. And this is 58.
Karina [00:13:40] I mean this is a preoccupation of his going way back.
Morgan [00:13:44] Going way way back and that piece is fascinating I watched that before we started making this. And it's also fascinating the way it's made it's cut in this incredibly fast way. Orson's asking questions and he's interrupting his subjects while they're answering all the time and they're up cutting all these things and it's so I mean you see the seeds of F for Fake actually. Yeah in this other piece and "F for Fake" was the documentary or made in the early 70s which was really the film that's influenced me the most of Orson's hands down and a film that's been a huge influence on me as a documentary filmmaker and one that I'm really paying homage to with "They'll Love Me When I'm Dead."
Karina [00:14:22] Well you use some footage from an actor yet. I mean I have a thousand questions I could ask you about F for Fake. But I mean I did want to talk a little bit about the style of your film and I mean we can start by talking about the narrator Alan Cummings who presents footage from the other side of "The Other Side of the Wind" from a moviola which is a technique that Welles himself does an "F for Fake."
Morgan [00:14:45] Yes and Orson often traveled with the moviola. I mean the thing is to have an on camera narrator in this day and age is not cool. It's like nobody does it. But I figured if ever there was an opportunity to do it it was with this film because Orson loved the narratorial voice. And it goes back to his radio days. But if you look at many of his films he narrates the trailers for his films he narrates every TV project he ever did he narrates and he made a living largely narrating things so I think Orson loved the use of narration and not just a voice of God. Narration But a narrator who's a character who's sometimes unreliable who has personality and I just thought well you know again going back to "F for Fake" I said I need to embrace this and kind of play with it and Alan Cummings was just the actor who I loved who I felt like occupied a similar space in a kind of bridging screen and stage and England and America and drama and comedy and you know there weren't a lot of people I could think of that kind of fit that.
Morgan [00:15:58] And it was incredibly fun to do. I mean I felt like I not only had a license but an obligation to experiment with this film because that's what Orson would've done.
Karina [00:16:08] Yeah we talked a little bit about how Beatrice Welles and Oja Kodar were two of the people who had kind of a claim on this footage and who had to be convinced to participate in allowing it to be you know reconstructed as "The Other Side The Wind." Was there any difficulty in getting them or anybody else to talk to you about Welles and about this period in his life?
Morgan [00:16:32] Well fortunately I didn't have to negotiate any of that. Frank and Philip took the lead on that.
Karina [00:16:38] Yeah.
Morgan [00:16:38] And I'd say first of all for the most part almost everybody in the film was not only not hard to get but they were dying to talk about this because for most of the people that worked on the film they were very young. It was maybe the first or second project they'd worked on as Josh Karp said. Anybody who ever worked on this film has had it on their IMDB their entire since I'm IMDB existed. You know that it's something that they're all proud of and that they haven't been able to talk about because it hasn't existed in the world. So almost everybody I talked to felt like oh I can finally tell you these stories I've had bottled forever you know that I'd been wanting to tell.
Morgan [00:17:17] So there was kind of an incredible level of enthusiasm from most people I think for Beatrice and for Oja. There is a certain amount of bitter sweetness to it. Not only because it's dealing with the end of of Orson's life. They both loved so much but also it was just a difficult time in his career and to have finished the film almost meant to be closing a chapter on Orson in a way that was both a completion but also a little bit of a death maybe in some way. So Beatrice didn't want to be interviewed till almost the very end. And I met with her many times and we'd have meals and she just said I'm not ready yet I'm not ready yet. And then finally at the end she said she would and Oja. I spent six months trying to get her to do an interview. And finally she said. Send me your questions and so I sent her three pages of questions. And she said I'll record your answers and send you the tape. But she did which I've never done it like that before but that was the only way she felt comfortable talking about it and she said to me she believes it's the last interview she'll ever give.
Karina [00:18:34] That's incredible.
Morgan [00:18:35] Yeah. I'm so glad she did because she was such a huge part of course of the film. She's a co-writer on the film she stars in the film. And it was kind of in the very center of their relationship.
Karina [00:18:45] Yeah she's such a huge witness to his life at this time.
Morgan [00:18:48] Yeah absolutely. And and she has such a unique angle on it too. I mean that and that's the thing about Orson is he's prismatic. Yeah. And it's interesting I had a screening of this film at the New York Film Festival about a month ago. And we did a Q and A. And a guy said look I just want you to tell me what's the truth about this. And I just thought the truth and the truth. Come on like this is Orson you know that. Yeah and or some with somebody who I think would have you know I mean he made "F for Fake" he's not somebody who wanted to embrace a simple truth. You know there's no Rosebud Orson or even later in his life Orson said you know he found Rosebud kind of a trite gimmick.
Karina [00:19:36] It is kind of like the this thing that is so central to the film that is best known of has. But it is also in providing an easy answer. It's so antithetical to so much of his work.
Morgan [00:19:48] Exactly. So I kind of went the opposite direction which I think is actually more accurate which is everything's true or not true you know.
Morgan [00:19:57] And part of that is I think is it because after interviewing I interviewed 45 people for this film and people would emphatically say Orson never wanted to finish this film. And other people would say Orson all he wanted to do was finish this film. Other people would say Orson was the least paternal person I ever met. Other people say Orson was the most wonderful fatherly figure I've ever had in my life.
Morgan [00:20:20] And I think they're all true because I think Orson was somebody who was a different person in different moments. At lunch he believed Oone thing emphatically in a dinner he believed the opposite emphatically. I mean I think he was that type of person. He was a shapeshifter he was an actor you know so in different situations he and different times certainly over the years I think he had many conflicting attitudes about many different things. And I think that's part of what makes him such a fascinating character. He's not a reducible character.
Karina [00:20:49] Right, well I mean do you think that this is a phenomenon that is particular to Orson Welles or is this something that you come across in your career as a documentarian of of on other films has it been easier if you don't know what the truth is or is there always a question?
Morgan [00:21:04] I mean I'm not interested in answers as much as questions. I mean my films are almost always about questions. The Fred Rogers film I made is full of questions. It ends on a question.
Morgan [00:21:17] I'm much more about presenting a lot of evidence to an audience and asking them to make up their mind because I feel like if I tell people what to think that's the worst way to treat an audience. I mean you want to empower an audience to present this evidence to present a complex picture and let people come out with different points of view about what it means because that's how life is.
Karina [00:21:37] Yeah they actually let's talk a little bit about the imagined audience for this film. When you're making it how do you decide how much of Orson Welles's biography to put and how do you decide if you're making it for somebody who's already an Orson Welles super fan or how do you speak to the uninitiated?
Morgan [00:21:54] I thought about it that I both wanted it to really appeal to the super fan and I really went out of my way to not use the same material that's been used before. I mean so much of this film is ancy material interviews he did and French BGM Meraux and other interviews and press conferences and things that have never been put into documentaries before. So I feel like for the for the Welles fans there's a lot of fresh material there. Not to mention all the dailies which have never been seen and will never be seen again that are that are left over from "The Other Side of The Wind." But the flip side is I wanted somebody who was not who really didn't know or seen Welles to have some sense of who he was in his scope of his career and and what he meant by seeing the film.
Morgan [00:22:44] So I don't have to walk you through every film he did and from "War of the Worlds" and "Mercury Theatre" on because that's so well trod upon territory. But I want you to at least have a sense of all that and how all those things made him into the man who he was. By 1970 when he started "The Other Side of The Wind." So it was a combination of those things. And it's something I actually loved doing because somebody like Welles to try and be authoritative on Welles is like a fool's errand. Like how many hours are there to make an authoritative film about Welles. You know 20 hours? You know like you can go on and on and on. And I feel like by putting a keyhole around it and kind of peeking through and saying this is the scope of what the film is and in in the parameters of this film and these years that Orson was working. You can get incredibly deep and it gives you an excuse to go down alleys you would never have time to otherwise.
Morgan [00:23:39] In a Welles film and I've done that on other films too I like that approach because ultimately if you're trying to be comprehensive about somebody you just you end up sound like Wikipedia or something that's just not interesting.
Karina [00:23:54] Yeah. Presumably most people are gonna watch both your film and "The Other Side of The Wind" for the first time on Netflix. Do you have a preference as to which one they watch first?
Morgan [00:24:04] I would say just from talking to many people about this who have done this in both you know either order that I think the consensus is watch the documentary first and then the feature. You don't have to run but I'd say I've heard from many many people just that the documentary gives you a tremendous amount of context. And "The Other Side of The Wind" is this incredibly complex interesting film but also very challenging as a viewer and I feel like you have a much richer viewing experience if you watch the documentary first and.
Karina [00:24:34] I want to ask a couple of questions related to the title of the film. First of all why did you choose it?
Morgan [00:24:41] "They'll Love Me When I'm Dead" isn't that a great film title?
Karina [00:24:46] It is, yeah!
Morgan [00:24:48] I don't. Early on I just it just hit me. I was like well just feels like a movie title to me. And of course it sums up Welles perception of how the world viewed him both in his life and in his legacy. Because even in these last years Welles was shadow boxing with his own legacy. You know everybody wanted to give him awards. Everybody wanted to have lunch with them. Nobody wanted him to make movies or give him money.
Karina [00:25:15] Right. He wanted to keep on working. He didn't want to be the subject of a lifetime achievement award because he didn't want his life to be over.
Morgan [00:25:22] Exactly. And this is very common you know with what we do particularly in Hollywood but in many industries you know we kind of put our great artists out to pasture because we want the next thing or the you know a youthful focus or whatever it is and this is something that Orson saw too.
Morgan [00:25:40] People like John Ford an AB happened afterwards to Billy Wilder and you know many many great directors that lived for decades without making films at the end of their lives. And Orson saw that happening to him. I mean what's interesting and why. Another reason I really wanted to make the film was that in the public perception the last chapter of Welles's life is a sad one that he was a washed up pitchman for wine commercials. And the reason that happened was that he took all of these acting jobs to pay for all of his movies.
Morgan [00:26:15] He was making however his movies never came out. So the world never got to see the fruits of his labor even though he was working on his own films. Virtually every day of the last 15 years of his life all they saw were these acting jobs and tonight show appearances and all these kinds of things he was doing. And for Welles he drew this line between acting and directing where he said as an actor I'm a prostitute. But as a director I remain virginal and with this idea that you know acting's not real art you know and it came so naturally to him that I think he really didn't care about it. So he was willing to do almost anything. And then as a director though he would not compromise one iota about anything he would never do anything it's why he never even really went to the studios to try and finance or decided when because there was no way he was going to give up any control whatsoever. And but that kind of a distinction between acting and directing the public didn't know or see. So you get this kind of blurred image of of who he was and where people really don't understand what he was doing then in fact he was doing the most audacious work and working very very hard in those last years.
Karina [00:27:25] I was thinking about the title after I watched the film because I don't know if I think that the film proves that the truth is more complicated than people actually loving him when he's dead.
Karina [00:27:36] I feel like all these people who are close to him and part of this process feel free to say whatever they want about him. And I don't know if that would be the case if he was still this imposing figure who was still around.
Morgan [00:27:48] You know I think a lot of people said a lot of very nice not nice things about oarsome when he was alive too. So I don't think they were pulling their punches too much. But there is an element of of you know once somebody dies people want to make them as one dimensional as possible.
Morgan [00:28:05] You suddenly want to synthesize somebody into like two or three lines and that's who they were and that's what they were about. And I think that's something that Orson fought against his whole life. I mean people were trying to you know basically pin his life story on you know as a boy wonder who fell afoul of the establishment and was an outsider who never found his way back in. You know I mean that was kind of the narrative that Orson was dealing with his whole life.
Morgan [00:28:38] And I think he had a very difficult time ever rewriting that even though he had tried other side the wind a major attempt to kind of rewrite that narrative too. I will say almost everybody I talked to loved Orson. I mean there's no doubt he could be a bastard. But there's something about his enthusiasm.
Morgan [00:29:01] He was such a purist and a romantic about what film meant. You know that to the point where he even though he had a huge ego when it came to film he had no ego. He would do whatever it took. You know he would do it if it meant climbing into the backseat of a car with a blanket over his head to sneak onto a backlot on a students film permit to shoot. He did it you know. You know he would do things like that again and again. He was the man who made Citizen Kane and he was acting like a guerrilla film student again and again I think everybody who worked on that film even though they didn't know where it was going or what it meant they I mean it was kind of Orson's superpower was the ability to have people follow him anywhere. I mean it's something that came from the Mercury Theatre on. You know he had this ability to get groups of people troops or crews or whomever to follow him to the ends of the earth because he believes so deeply in what he was doing and just to find a character who believes so deeply in what they were doing is a rare thing that there was no kind of cynicism about his own commitment to his art. Cynicism about everything else about that.
Karina [00:30:13] Do you think it's easier or harder or just different making a film about somebody who is no longer around so that you can't talk to them?
Morgan [00:30:22] It's just different. You know I think there are pros and cons of both. And I don't know if Orson was around because I've watched virtually every frame of him talking from any interview or you don't. On and on that. That I would have gotten much more than anybody else got. You know because I mean he was he was good at playing the role of what you wanted out of that situation. So he did that with interviewers again and again. And he was brilliant at it. He has an incredible rock and tour in that way. But I don't know if he really would have gotten to the inner stuff. Yeah. You know I think that's what he put into his heart.
Karina [00:31:02] Yeah, I mean I kind of got the sense that people were unloading about him because he was they finally could. But I don't know how much that has to do with him not being around or just that as you said this was the first time that anybody asked?
Morgan [00:31:17] Yeah I mean I guess there are. I mean there are people kind of doubting what or some was actually doing and what he intended to do. But even even people who were wronged by Orson still have so much affection for him.
Karina [00:31:33] Right.
Morgan [00:31:34] Which is interesting which says a lot about about him. I did not come across much bitterness. Yeah I came across people who maybe saw him as an adult in a different way than they saw him as a 25 year old crewmember. And with more wisdom and maybe realized that you know there was something. I mean it's not a stretch to say that he was a quixotic character. I mean that his Don Quixote was one of his lifelong obsessions. You may have spent decades trying to make a film about Don Quixote. And I went back and reread Quixote when we were making this film. And oh my god the similarities are everywhere. So there's something about look reading Quixote as a young man and then reading as an old man that you know the same way that looking at Orson when you're young and when you're old. It's different. It's not as romantic but it's but it's still touching.
Karina [00:32:27] Do you think that it like Quixote became a self-fulfilling prophecy for him?
Morgan [00:32:32] I mean it's I the question is did he want to start making Quixote because cause he felt he identified with the character or did he become the character because he was making it. I mean I think I think ultimately the the questions of Quixote were things that resonated with Orson throughout his entire life which is Quixote like Welles saw the world in a way that nobody else did. And everybody thought he was insane because of it. But as coyote would argue maybe he was the safest of them all. And I think Welles felt that way. He identified with that that he saw the world in a different way than everybody else and everybody thought he was crazy and maybe he was but maybe he was the sanest person out there.
Karina [00:33:18] Let's talk a little bit about your big year and you've had as we said a hit film already this year "Won't You Be My Neighbor" about Mr. Rogers. You're the executive producer of "Ugly Delicious." Which is the incredible David Chang series on Netflix and now you have this. I mean have you ever had a year like this in your career?
Morgan [00:33:38] No.
Morgan [00:33:40] I mean I've had busy years. I had a year where I'm best of enemies came out music of strangers came out.
Morgan [00:33:46] And Keith Richards documentary Under the Influence on Netflix all came out in 2015 that was crazy. This year's crazier. And you know I mean I didn't in a perfect world not all these things would cluster like they do. Yeah. And it was really like I said the Orson Welles film was supposed to happen a couple of years ago ideally. And it was in the middle of making "Won't You be My Neighbor" I got the call saying guess what the footage is coming and says like OK I guess this is going to happen so soon as we picture locked "Won't You be My Neighbor." We immediately started editing "They'll Love Me When I'm Dead." And yeah it's intense but it's great. I mean it's an amazing time to be making documentaries. I've been doing it this year's my 25th anniversary of making documentaries. And 25 years ago there was absolutely nothing cool about it. And there were. It was impossible to get funding. There were very few places even see documentaries and to be at the place we're at right now is amazing. I mean every good documentary filmmaker I know is there everybody's busy doing great things and I'd never would have believed it.
Karina [00:34:55] Obviously there are more platforms for things now like Netflix but have you seen any other cultural changes that you could ascribe to the I guess increasing popularity of the form?
Morgan [00:35:05] Yeah I mean I think part of it is certainly access and just the streaming platforms like Netflix have made documentaries just as available as other forms and you know what I always heard for years were was you know I love documentaries I don't know where to find them. And now that people can find them easily I think it's just broaden the appetite in the audience for documentaries.
Morgan [00:35:24] But the other reason I mean there are many reasons that documentaries are getting more interesting and better produced. But I also feel like Hollywood's not making a lot of deep adult films that engage with the world like they used to and documentaries occupied this space that engage with the real world in a way that is not escapist but it's also not without hope.
Morgan [00:35:48] I guess you know that a lot of documentaries allow you to think about and engage in the real world in a productive way that's also entertaining and or life affirming or educating and it just it's the type of experience you can't get anywhere else. You know it's rare that I go to a theater and see a scripted film that I come away with the same experience I do from from a great documentary. And of course I'm partial because I love documentaries but but I do feel like part of why this year has been.
Morgan [00:36:18] Maybe the greatest here ever for documentaries is because audiences are getting something from them they're not getting from other movies or from any other kind of experience.
Karina [00:36:28] Is there anything else you have coming up that you can talk about.
Morgan [00:36:31] No. I'm working on a bunch of things. Bunch things on Netflix and other exciting things but I think are all under wraps for now happen next year.
Karina [00:36:41] Well thank you so much for talking to me today, Morgan.
Morgan [00:36:44] Great talking to you.
Rae Votta [00:36:47] That was Karina and Morgan. And now let's hear from you. Here are some of your reactions to "They'll Love Me When I'm Dead".
Emily [00:36:54] This tweet is from @yourfavebandsucks. Just watched. They'll love me when I'm dead and I'm currently setting up a patreon to invent a time machine to make sure Orson Welles can make whatever he wants.
Dina [00:37:06] @Timsamans tweets, I'm floored with fascination over "The Other Side of The Wind" and its companion film "They'll Love me When I'm Dead." While the former is a masterfully put together piece of work the latter is a moving portrait of a perfection seeker who couldn't live long enough to achieve it.
Bari [00:37:22] @Mattiewhittle tweets, "They'll Love Me When I'm Dead" should've been called or Orson'in around. Okay that's it. Good night all.
Rae Votta [00:37:30] Share your thoughts on any upcoming Netflix true story. Just search for "You Can't Make This Up" on your social media of choice. And who knows we'll dramatically read your tweet.
Rae Votta [00:37:40] Before we let you go let's find out what Karina and Morgan are watching on Netflix. It's time for: What You Watching?
Karina [00:37:48] So tell me what have you been watching lately on Netflix.
Morgan [00:37:51] Maniac is what I've been watching which is just like a totally twisted great show. Totally up my alley. So things like that. And of course a bunch of documentaries, "Shirkers." This new documentary that just came and enough was last week. I love this one my favorite docs this year.
Karina [00:38:11] I haven't heard of that. Could you tell me that?
Morgan [00:38:12] Oh it's just great, again, very complicated meta story about the woman who made a film in her teenage years in Singapore. And just on the cusp of finishing the film her film teacher and mentor vanished with the footage. And she gets a call 25 years later saying 'I have your movie.' And it's about her trying to piece together what happened and pieced together the movie at the same time.
Karina [00:38:38] Wow sounds like a great companion piece to...
Morgan [00:38:41] It really does echo a lot of the themes. It's interesting. So, check that out. So, what have you been watching?
Karina [00:38:47] I watched the new film by Nicole Holofcener the "Land of Steady Habits."
Karina [00:38:52] I'm a huge fan of her films like "Walking and Talking" and "Please Give" and "Friends With Money" and I put it on like one Sunday morning thinking like I'll just watch like 10 minutes of this and then I'll watch the rest later because I have to go out and do stuff and then I got sucked in and I end up watching the whole thing just like lying in bed. And it's so great that Ben Mendelsohn gives an incredible performance. I love him. It's just you know as we saying you know Bode's. The indie film world of narrative features is not what it once was and when a filmmaker like her gets a chance to make up a personal intimate you know just drama about people talking and living their lives it's really great to see.
Morgan [00:39:33] I can't wait to see it. Thanks for the tip.
Karina [00:39:35] You're welcome.
Rae Votta [00:39:37] And that's it for this week's episode.
Rae Votta [00:39:41] We'll be back next month to talk about all things true crime in 2018. You can catch up on any previous episode on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Google Play, Spotify, and wherever else you get your podcasts. Make sure to subscribe rate and review the show. It helps other people find it. And also it's a personal joy of mine. "You Can't Make This Up" is a production of Pineapple Street Media and Netflix. Our music is by Hansdale Hsu. I'm Rae Votta and thank you so much for listening.