This month, we’re covering Abducted in Plain Sight. This 90-minute documentary follows the unpredictable tale of a girl who gets kidnapped right under family’s nose, not once. But twice. We have the director Skye Borgman speaking with this month’s interviewers, Rebecca Lavoie and Kevin Flynn. You might know Kevin and Rebecca from their podcast Crime Writers On, or from our episode on The Innocent Man. They are here to walk us through this shocking documentary.
This month, we’re covering Abducted in Plain Sight. This 90-minute documentary follows the unpredictable tale of a girl who gets kidnapped right under family’s nose, not once. But twice.
We have the director Skye Borgman speaking with this month’s interviewers, Rebecca Lavoie and Kevin Flynn. You might know Kevin and Rebecca from their podcast Crime Writers On, or from our episode on The Innocent Man. They are here to walk us through this shocking documentary.
Rae: Welcome to You Can’t Make This Up, a companion podcast from Netflix.
[Music]
Rae: I’m Rae Votta and I am hosting this week’s episode. Here on You Can’t Make This Up we go behind the scenes with special guests to talk about the true crime stories that you can watch on Netflix. This month we’re covering Abducted in Plain Sight. This 90-minute documentary follows the unpredictable tale of a girl who gets kidnapped right under her family’s nose not once, but twice. We have the director, Skye Borgman here to speak with this month’s hosts Rebecca Lavoie and Kevin Flynn. You might know Rebecca and Kevin from their podcast Crime Writers On..., or from our episode ‘About the Innocent Man’. These repeat offenders are here to walk us through this shocking documentary. Let’s get into the interview.
Kevin: So, we’re talking now with Skye Borgman. She is the director of Abducted in Plain Sight. And we’re so happy to have you on the podcast, Skye.
Skye: Well, I’m so happy to be here.
Kevin: You and I met at the Toronto True Crime Film Festival over the summer. It was the last evening of the festival. And you had opened-, this movie had opened the festival. And I missed it because I was flying in from New Hampshire. So, I missed it. But when I got there, there was all this buzz. And we got to talking and you said that, you know, Netflix is going to pick it up. And I was like, this is great. I get to see it. But I missed that opening show. And I got to ask, what was the crowd reaction like to this documentary?
Skye: It was amazing. I mean, the theater was packed, which I was so happy about. We were the opening night film of the first ever Toronto True Crime Film Festival. And Lisa Gallagher had invited our film to open the whole thing, which was such an honor. And people were so excited. They were crazy. I mean, so many questions. Such an electric Q&A afterwards at that screening, in particular. I mean, at every screening that we had, really. But just so many questions. You know, sometimes with Question and Answers after films, there’s a lot of hesitation and people are, kind of, not really raising their hands really fast. And this one is like, you could barely get out, ‘Is there any question?’ And hands were flying up everywhere. It was really-, it was really great.
Kevin: But I’m wondering, during the watching process, because there-, and you know this by now. People in their living rooms are yelling at the TV like it’s a horror film.
Rebecca: You basically made the red wedding of crime documentaries is what you did.
Kevin: Was it a staid crowd where everybody was biting their fingernails? Or were they yelping and gasping and laughing the way that the rest of us are?
Rebecca: Nervously. Laughing nervously.
Skye: Yes. Yes.
Rebecca: Not laughing because it’s funny, but because it’s shocking.
Skye: Yeah. All of it. I mean, it’s funny because when we first screened the film for an audience which was at Mammoth Lakes Film Festival, the audiences were just the same. You know, gasping. A lot of like, hand gestures. You know, because I’m usually in the back of the theater watching. And people are just like, ‘Ugh’ and like, throwing their hands up in the air. And… And when I first experienced that at our first ever screening, I was sort of shocked. And I’ve never been in an experience like this at a movie theater where typically people are just, you know, quiet and respectful and watching the film and not entering into any kind of dialogue with the screen.
But every single screening we had, it was sparking so many different emotions of anger and frustration and sadness and humor too. I mean, I remember the first-, the car scene and the first time we screened it with an audience and people were laughing. And I was just like, holy cow. Like, what’s going on here? And it was such a-, it really was a surprise to me. But as we-, we screened it more and more, it became a pretty regular response that people had.
Rebecca: Right.
Kevin: Are you saying you didn’t anticipate that?
Skye: I didn’t.
Kevin: Were you just too close to editing this and listening to this that you just didn’t know that it was going to come together like that?
Skye: Probably, yeah. And I think where the laughter comes from is this place of discomfort. And also, this, kind of, foreboding, kind of, feeling like, what’s going to happen? What’s going to happen? And then when it comes, there’s just such shock that the only way to express yourself, I guess, is laughter. I mean, that’s, kind of, how I’ve thought about it since it happened. And we had gotten quite close to the material, obviously, during the editing process that we weren’t laughing at that moment in time. And so, when people did laugh, it was a little bit of a surprise.
Rebecca: Right. I think it has to do with the disbelief. Because when you are confronted with what you think should happen or could have happened, and then what does happen is so desperate from that expectation that the sort of gulf there, you have to fill it. You have to figure out a way to fill it. And I know when Kevin and I were watching, I actually started like, taping Kevin because it was like…
Kevin: It was after that moment.
Rebecca: You couldn’t contain it. It was just bubbling out of you.
Kevin: It wasn’t that partic-, the car scene. But after that—
Rebecca: So many other things just, you know, sort of, elicited these reactions from us. But I have a—
Kevin: And can I push pause for one sec because I’m asking you: Listener, if you have not watched Abducted in Plain Sight, do not begin with this podcast.
Rebecca: No.
Kevin: Pause.
Rebecca: Yeah.
Kevin: Go wa-, we’ll still be here.
Rebecca: That’s right.
Kevin: Pause. Go do it. Then come back and pick it up from here.
Rebecca: Because it’s hard to really explain what we’re talking about unless you see it.
Kevin: This is what you really do not want to spoil anything.
Rebecca: But then also, you know, Skye, we talk about like the format of this documentary. It’s very straight. This is just interviews with subjects in the film. You don’t interject yourself. You don’t interject these, sort of, you know, bringing us places other than just listening to this family tell their story.
Kevin: There’s no cut away of people arranging flowers.
Rebecca: No, no. It’s just them and then some recreations that are done in that really interesting style. How did you decide to make the film that way? Was it because the story was so unbelievable that you didn’t need to do more than that?
Skye: Yeah. I mean, I think that’s where it really comes from is that watching these people tell their story was so much more compelling than anything else we could have done. At one point, I did do interviews with a forensic psychologist and, sort of, got some insight into their behaviors. And was thinking I could put her interview in and had played around in the edit putting her interview in to give some context and some explanation. But really, we always just circled back to keeping it about this family and just staying with this family and their situation. And bringing, sort of, this outside voice in and somebody who hadn’t really gone through this situation with the family felt-, I don’t know. It just felt a little bit inauthentic.
Rebecca: Right. So, how did you end up becoming connected to this story? How did it come your way?
Skye: It really started from the book that they wrote, Stolen Innocence. And reading that book and just not really believing anything that happened in it. I was like, how could something so crazy happen? And in the book, both the parents left out their sexual affairs with Berchtold. So, once I’d found out about-, especially Mary Ann’s affair, it’s like, the puzzle pieces just started to fit together when they weren’t, you know, it was-, it wasn’t fitting together at all before that.
Rebecca: Are you saying that they had an-, had they told this story publicly before including that detail? Or was this the first time this detail has been made part of their story?
Skye: This is-yeah. This is-, it’s the first time.
Rebecca: Wow.
Skye: It’s the first time. Yeah. And it’s pretty amazing, actually, that they were able to share it with me, I think. Maryanne had been-, like, she and her daughters had talked about it – her affair with Berchtold. They had talked about it a little bit. And Bob had not really and had never ever shared this story publicly. And so, for him to talk about his indiscretion was a big burden, I think, lifted on his shoulders because he’d carried this secret around with him for 40 years. And I think he was really just able to talk about it. And that it was a cathartic moment for him.
Kevin: Let’s jump ahead to that because I think that there’s a lot about that of everything here that is unbelievable. That that is a really big scene. I mean, you must have seen people online posting their reactions to that scene.
Rebecca: Bob’s confession. Right. Right.
Kevin: Bob’s confession.
Skye: Yeah. Yeah. It’s been-, it’s been really interesting because Bob passed away last November. And so, he hasn’t—
Kevin: Oh, I didn’t know that.
Skye: Yeah. He hasn’t seen any of the memes and the reactions, thankfully, I think. But his daughters have. And his wife has. And it’s been very hard on them to see how people respond to Bob.
It’s an interesting thing because I think it-, there’s also a-, you know, it’s a little bit funny, some of these memes. And so, it does in a really, sort of, sideways way, provide a little bit of levity to a really serious subject. But it’s been really interesting because it’s also seeing how people or experiencing, I guess, how people can just go with their gut reactions on social media so easily. It provides this great outlet where there’s no censor whatsoever.
But it’s also hard, I think, to realize that there are real people on the receiving end of it. And that this non-censorship of your reactions can be quite hurtful to people.
Kevin: Why do you think that particular revelation resonates with people?
Skye: I think it’s the laugh moment that you’re talking about. That it’s just so unbelievable that it happened. And I think people don’t expect it really to be coming. I mean, I think that’s what it is, that they’re just like, holy cow. And I think it’s also really hard for people to put themselves in that position. I mean, so many people are like, yeah, never-, never, never, never would that happen to me. And so, I think it’s a combination of those two things just not being able to put yourself in the shoes, and also just being really unbelievable.
Kevin: Yeah. It’s like, the complete final capitulation of the whole family. And you save Bob for last. To me, that’s why I just couldn’t believe it. Because first, you get the revelation about Mary Ann, the mother being drawn in by B. And you can’t believe that. And then—
Rebecca: Well, I don’t know. I mean, I actually differ from Kevin. And that we talked about this in our podcast a little bit. I mean, I think the thing that people really don’t understand about this kind of predator, this Berchtold variety of predator. And this is why I’m so glad, actually, that Leaving Neverland, the documentary of Michael Jackson came out so close to yours.
Skye: I know. Me too.
Rebecca: Only because the window that I kept trying to open in a conversation (we were talking about this) is guys who do this are really, really good at it. They’re really good at it. And this guy was great at it. So great that he was able to groom an entire family without being famous, without being rich. Just by being their neighbor, somebody in their community. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Skye: Yeah. I agree with you about the proximity of Leaving Neverland and Abducted in Plain Sight. Because what I love about the juxtaposition of the two is that you see this mega super most famous man on the earth being able to groom a huge amount of people; both the people who work for him, multiple families, his fans. But it isn’t really that different than this other guy who’s, you know, one of the most popular guys in his church. Like, in their world he was able to groom his community.
And you’re absolutely right. It’s being really good at it. It’s being able to target people to know what their weaknesses are and then to work on those weaknesses. And it might have been easier for Michael Jackson, actually, to be able to do it because he’s got this star power. But with Berchtold, I think he was just such a great psychologist in a way, that he could see somebody and he knew exactly which buttons to push and how to infiltrate a family.
Kevin: Yeah. He is so good at this. It cannot possibly be the only time he’s been able to manipulate a family or people in order to get his way.
Skye: Right. And I—
Kevin: Has it?
Skye: I don’t think so. I mean, I don’t know exactly. There were some instances where there may have been somebody before this family. I know there are multiple women who talk to Jan and her family after the fact and said that it had happened with them. But I think it’s-, I think it’s even not just from, kind of, a pedophile’s perspective but, you know, his brother says he was a great car salesman. So, I think this is something that he employed in his life on a very regular basis. What can he do to get his way?
He was also, you know, he always had money and he was always doing these deals. He was trading and he was getting this. And he was buying this family fun center. And he had this motorhome all of a sudden. And that takes a lot of skill to be able to barter your way around life. And I think he was just really good at getting what he wanted.
Rebecca: Yeah. That is actually extremely clear. I mean, it speaks to that personality too, somebody who is a good car salesman who could barter their way through life, who can then convince parents that even though he’s already committed a crime that affects their family, he should still be allowed to have access to their family. And that’s, kind of, the other rub here, I think. And I wanted you to get the chance to speak to this because in 2019, people-, especially people with kids are so quick to say, ‘I’m a parent, and I would never….’ And I do think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding of how parents thought of their role and, sort of, the understanding of what predators were capable of. And the impact of those predators in the 1970’s and ’80’s that just-, it’s in place now. And we judge people in the past through our present-day lens. And I think that that’s something that makes your documentary especially interesting and those debates especially interesting. What do you think?
Skye: Yeah. I think it’s true. But I also feel like those same predators, were they alive today? They are alive today. Are still doing the same thing and we don’t-, and we don’t see it. So, I don’t-, I actually don’t think this is just a 1970’s story or an ’80’s story. I think… I think what I would love for people to walk away from this film, sort of, carrying with them is the idea that it is someone that we know, love, and trust. And when you think about what those three words mean, it’s the people that you would never expect could do this that are doing this.
And even with Berchtold, I mean, he was such a good friend of theirs. And they never ever expected that he would do this. They thought he was, kind of, weird. But, I mean, a pedophile wasn’t in their vocabulary. It is today. So, that’s different. I think we have much better education today. But what hasn’t changed is our relationship to the people who are abusing the kids. And it’s-, you know, it’s the girlfriend. It’s the husband. It’s the step-dad. It’s the priest. It’s the coach. I mean, these stories are everywhere in our lives and that has not changed.
Kevin: We need to have a deeper conversation about Bob and Mary Ann. But let’s switch to Jan for a minute here. She certainly was under B’s spell. And if, to go with him not just once, but twice. Is this-, do you think this is typical of how a young victim reacts to her abuser, or is this different?
Skye: I think it’s pretty typical. I mean, especially at this age, you know, 10-, 11-, 12- years-old. It’s such an impressionable age for kids especially when they’re being groomed. I mean, it’s kind of like, Grooming 101, really, where they’re getting lots of toys. They’re getting compliments. She’s being told she’s the most special kid on the planet. He’s got more money. They’re doing more fun stuff. There’s trampolines. There’s boats. There’s all this great stuff. And he’s making Jan feel like a queen. So, I think it’s really easy to fall in love.
And I think for that love to, sort of, transition from this second dad, kind of love, and to slowly move into this more romantic kind of love which is what Jan was doing, you know? She thought about Berchtold as a second dad and slowly got these romantic feelings for him. And I think that was also a very manipulative tactic as well talking about love and how he felt about her in a more romantic way, not just a dad way. So, he was changing that to a point where once he kidnapped her and took her to Mexico, then moving into this sexual relationship didn’t seem so weird.
Rebecca: And I think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding of what grooming entails. It also-, it doesn’t just entail having a kid keep your secret. And I think that what we get a lot in these stories is like, ‘He threatened me that he would hurt people in my life.’ And I think the more typical grooming is the grooming to teach the child that what they’re feeling is real and that they enjoy it and that it’s healthy. And that the secret is being kept because other people wouldn’t understand its wonderfulness. I mean, that’s what somebody who’s good at this is good at doing. And that’s what makes it so frightening.
The details here are, for lack of a better word, they’re bananas in that even when you think about how Berchtold used the intercom to get Jan to think that she was being spoken to by aliens and part of an alien abduction experiment. When you would hear these details being told to you, even if you’d already read about them in the book, did you have a hard time keeping your jaw from falling to the floor sometimes when you were like, filming these conversations?
Skye: Yeah. And it’s funny, especially that alien segment. I constantly was questioning, is this true? Is this not true? Is this true? Is this not true? And eventually I kind of got to a point where I’m like, maybe it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. Maybe it’s one of Jan’s coping mechanisms that has helped her heal.
And then we actually got an e-mail from someone. And this is while we were editing the film, who had also been abused by Berchtold. And she told us a story about him using this story of her being an alien princess. And she was part of this planet and they had to have a baby to save the planet. And her story was so close to what Jan had told us. And it was, for me, really, that moment where I’m like, holy cow, this is the truth. This is not something that Jan may have made up to cope with what had happened to her. That he used this idea on multiple different girls.
Kevin: Were there other parts of Jan’s story that you questioned about whether or not they should be in the documentary?
Skye: Yeah. I mean, there were always-, there were a couple of instances nobody could really put their finger on when Jan goes up to Jackson Hole. Everybody remembered that story a little bit differently. They all knew that she got up there. But there were all these different ways that she got up there. And Karen remembered it different than Susan different than Mary Ann. Different-, everybody had a different version.
Kevin: So, they put her on a plane. And—
Skye: Right. Right. Everybody knew she got on a plane, but nobody knew how she got there and who was the-, and it was just really confusing to everybody. And even now, afterwards, when the film’s out there, Jan’s like, I know that’s not true. I know it’s not true. I know it happened this way. And luckily at that point we had some court transcripts from the second hearing. And the court transcripts laid out pretty well, I think it was Mary Ann’s recollection of how things had happened. And so, because there was such a different remembering of it, we went back to the court transcripts. And they were, kind of, our second level of truth. If it matched up with the court transcripts, we were like, okay, this is true.
Because I think also, something that happens-, and I know I’ve done this myself. I am able to, sort of, tell myself a version of the truth that makes me feel better about something. And the more I do that, the more it becomes the truth. And that other version that I didn’t really want to happen hasn’t happened because I’ve told myself this truth so many times. And… and I think the Broberg’s did that to a certain extent, you know, talking about this. And it changes a little bit, and it changes a little bit, and it changes a little bit so that 40 years after the fact it’s like, well, what really did happen? And so, having those court transcripts, and sort of, other people telling their versions of the story were really helpful in, kind of, honing in on what really-, I mean, as real as we could figure out, what really had happened.
Kevin: As true crime writers ourselves, we do find that happens quite a bit. The longer it goes on, each time you tell the story, you soften the edge a little bit.
Rebecca: And depending on who you’re telling it to, it makes a difference to because you’re-, I mean, we tailor everything we talk about to our audience whether or not we think we do or not. And this is the thing that like, I don’t understand. You know, people always say, ‘Why did his story change?’ Well, it changed because he's telling it to a different person. That’s why it’s changed.
One question I had that was, sort of, a lingering thread that made me curious was about Berchtold’s family. We see his wife at the beginning of the documentary. She’s referred to there as being, you know, married to him. Also, a neighbor.
Kevin: Gail. Yeah.
Rebecca: And we also meet his brother. And then his family, kind of, fades from view in the documentary. And I’m wondering, what happened with Gail? And also, how involved was his family in your version of the telling of this story?
Skye: I wish I could have gotten more from his family. We reached out to all of them to see if they would do an interview and none of them really wanted to. None of them wanted to dredge up the past. I mean, I think they all, kind of, thought that it’s the past. It’s buried. And we just don’t want to dig it up again. With the exception of Joe. I mean, Joe was interested in doing an interview with us after we talked to him for a little bit. And I’m so happy he did because I do feel like he gives Bob Berchtold a little bit more of a voice. Like, you do get some insight into their family because he decided to do the interview.
And I know from his point of view, he wanted his brother to have a voice as well. He didn’t just want it to be a one-sided Broberg conversation. And so, I’m really thankful that he came on and did that interview with us.
Kevin: So, let’s shift to the parents for a second. So, Bob and Mary Ann. I don’t know if this is your experience but it certainly was inferred by the audience that they were just terribly gullible. And is that the way you would describe them?
Skye: Yeah. It’s interesting. Gullible, naïve, I mean, all of these words have, sort of, filtered to the top. I think, yes. And I think that there’s also, you know, an understanding of small-town 1970’s LDS town. And there are a lot of elements at play with that. And they felt very safe in their community. There was no reason, really, that they knew, for them to be worried about any evil, sort of, creeping in. So, I think it’s a combination of all of these things.
I think it’s also easy to judge. I mean, you know, I watch the film with my mom and mom’s a little bit older than the Broberg’s. But I said, you know, I mean, I was growing up in the seventies as well and said, you know, does any of this-, can you relate to any of this? And she-, you know, again, the last thing she’s going to do is say, yeah, I would have totally let you go with a pedophile. You know? She would never say that.
Rebecca: Yeah.
Kevin: Yeah.
Skye: But she couldn’t understand any of their actions. I think a lot of that is because I didn’t grow up in an LDS community. And I think… I think that’s something that played a big part in the trust and the forgiveness that the Broberg’s showered onto Berchtold. And I also think their faith is what kept them together as a family. So, it’s a pretty complicated relationship that they have with their-, or my perception is, it’s pretty complicated, the relationship with they have with their faith.
Rebecca: Don’t you think too, I mean, I think about the LDS community. It’s a relatively closed community. And I think in small towns in the 1970’s it would have been even more-so. And predators like Berchtold understand, I think, what the riper hunting grounds are. And those kinds of closed communities, whether they be religious or geographically isolated or, you know, in some other way inclusive of only people like themselves seem to be riper hunting grounds.
I mean, I think about the fact that, you know, in his second kidnapping he squirreled her away in this religious school run by nuns. Also, a closed community where he could tell a lie. And who are the nuns going to tell? Like, who do they interact with because other nuns? Right?
Skye: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it’s targeting a family within a community. So… And I wouldn’t be surprised if during that time when he showed up to Pocatello, Idaho and found this church that he was going to join with his family, if he wasn’t looking around and trying to figure out which family in that room was one that he could befriend and one that he could get it-, himself into.
Rebecca: Hm.
Kevin: There’s so many details of their story. Did it get to the point where you’re just like, ‘Oh, for fuck’s sake!’
[Laughter]
Rebecca: Like you did, kind of, when you were watching it? [laughs]
Kevin: Yeah. But, you know, they let him sleep in her bed for like, six to 12 months or whatever it was because of his therapy.
Rebecca: Right.
Kevin: You know, my-, and the therapy as well, I have a problem with having sex with children. So, can I sleep in the bed with your child so it doesn’t—I mean, like, like, really. WTF.
Skye: Yeah. No, it’s true. And, but it also goes back to this idea of listening to the experts and not having agency within your own life. And that’s something, you know, if they go to the Bishop and they talk to their Bishop before they went to law enforcement. And if Berchtold came to them and said, ‘Listen, my doctor says I need to do this.’ And they go, oh. Oh, well, this expert knows. I’m not a doctor. I couldn’t possibly know what’s going to help you. And my faith says I should forgive you and welcome you back in and try to help you be a better person. So, I’m going to do whatever I can to help you be a better person.
So, I think there’s a lot of things at play there. And, yes, you do scratch your head. And you do get incredibly frustrated. And I got incredibly frustrated with them. But I also was always, always reminding myself that I need to see beyond, and, kind of, see the work, sort of, the architecture that went into getting these people to this point.
Kevin: But do you think that the two of them, mom and dad, that there was something about their relationship where they were so self-absorbed with one another that they forgot to be parents?
Skye: I don’t know if it was that they were self-absorbed with one another. I think they were self-absorbed with Berchtold. And I think that’s how the whole sex-, you know, that’s what the sex got them is I think there was this infatuation that both of them legitimately had with Berchtold. I think they had their affairs with Berchtold. And then it was the guilt that they carried with them because of those affair, struggling with the desire that they may both still have felt for him. And also, the shame that they were bringing on their family in the eyes of the community.
So, all of these things are, kind of, circling around their heads. And that’s what they’re thinking about. And they’re not thinking about their three little girls. Essentially, Karen and Susan were-, I mean, I don’t want to say ignored. But they were so on the periphery at that point. And then Jan… Jan basically was invisible too because they had all of these things that were-, that they were looking at themselves and their feelings for Berchtold that they couldn’t really see what was happening around them.
Rebecca: Hm. How did Berchtold-, how long did he-, was he able to keep his own nuclear family together? I-, that’s a detail that I, kind of, lost the thread on. Like, how long did his wife stay with him throughout this whole saga?
Skye: So, she left. There was a period of separation where he had come back to Pocatello and she and the kids had moved down to Ogden. And then they were in Ogden. And so, there was a period of separation. But basically, around the second kidnapping they actually ended up getting a divorce. So, they were separated geographically for a while and then ended up divorcing.
Rebecca: There are some things that you left out. You either didn’t have time for, like, so you made a creative choice not to use. There’s something about Mary Ann’s brother and a gun?
Skye: Yeah. It was a pretty small element to the story. But at one point-, and this was after the second kidnapping when they were trying to figure out where Jan was. And Mary Ann had arranged a meeting with Berchtold, or he had arranged a meeting with her. And she went to this meeting with the intention of trying to get some information out of him. But she was nervous about seeing him. And at this point in time, she had… You know, she had realized who he was and what he was doing to their family. And she was nervous and so, she had her brother show up at this parking lot where they were supposed to meet. And he was just in a truck parked somewhere. And she had a gun under the seat. And they met. And she didn’t get any information.
There wasn’t really much more to the story than that. But I did end up on the cutting room floor because we-, from a filmmaker perspective, didn’t really feel like it was moving the story forward or really moving the characters forward. So, that’s one of the things that we ended up cutting out of the film.
Kevin: Well, you know, they do say you have to, what? Slay your babies, or…
Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah.
Kevin: You know, whatever. What-, anything else really good that, you know, you said, yeah, you got another five minutes?
Rebecca: I can’t even imagine. I can’t even imagine what was left on the floor, what was in here.
Skye: Yeah. The one real heartbreaker to me that was in the cut until, until very close to the end was a trip that Berchtold had made (this was before the first kidnapping) had made down to Mexico to adopt a little girl. And the adoption was all ready to go.
He went down and we had audio recording of him looking at these little girls. And it was really creepy. And…
Kevin: What?
Skye: And he managed to adopt this little girl and was bringing her—
Kevin: What?
Rebecca: Oh, my God.
Skye: …back to the states and was stopped at the border. And the little girl was taken away from him.
Kevin: What?
Skye: Yeah.
Rebecca: Oh, my God.
Skye: Yeah. And…
Rebecca: Kevin’s face right now. Just like we’re watching the doc all over again.
Kevin: I’m watching it all over again.
Rebecca: And then a whole other red wedding scene going on right here in our studio.
Skye: I know. So, that-, I mean, it was a great story point. But because of the way that we structured it, we couldn’t quite-, we just couldn’t quite get it to, sort of, bend the way we needed it to.
Kevin: Yeah. Let’s pivot to the government for a second because it seems like there’s a lot of evidence here that the parents let Jan down. Do you feel like the system let Jan down too?
Skye: Absolutely. I mean, I think that the FBI was at a stage where they had just really recently launched this campaign about stranger danger. I remember everybody talking about stranger danger. And hadn’t really fully grasped the concept of the fact that it’s someone that you know, I think, it’s 95 percent of the time. I could be slightly wrong on those statistics, but it’s huge. That it’s someone you know that’s molesting your child. And they hadn’t really figured that out yet.
And I think over the course of the next 10 years they started figuring that out when the big missing child campaign came along in the eighties with Etan Patz on the back of the milk cartons. You know, that’s when I feel like, things were really starting to make a turn and people were starting to understand how child abuse happens, who’s committing the acts of child abuse, how kids aren’t talking, and what-, how to deal with this.
I mean, look, we still have problems with it today. It's not like we’ve figured this shit out. Right? It’s still a big problem.
Kevin: No. No. But if somebody goes with your kid in a camper to Mexico, you probably wouldn’t wait the entire weekend before calling somebody these days.
Skye: Yeah. And that’s one of the things that’s one of the biggest head-scratchers to me is, just this idea that Mary Ann had that she didn’t want to disturb anybody. And that was the predominant emotion. I don’t want to cause anybody any problems. And I think that goes along with the fact that, that she just trusted Berchtold. Like, that he had given them no reason, really, not-, well, at least she felt like he had given them no real reason to distrust him. And so, why get everybody all flustered and bothered if he just, kind of, disappeared with Jan? And nothing’s happening?
Kevin: The closest thing that you have to a Greek chorus is Pete Welsh, the FBI special Agent.
Rebecca: Right.
Skye: Yeah.
Kevin: Because we do see his frustration. And when he-, it’s funny because as I’m watching, you know, you get right to the kidnapping. And about 10 minutes in, I’m thinking, oh, well, this is the end of the story.
Rebecca: This is going to be really short.
Kevin: There’s nothing more.
Rebecca: It’s going to be [unintelligible 00:33:05].
Kevin: They really put a lot out there in the beginning.
[Laughter]
Rebecca: It’s like that first seven minutes of an SVU episode with the red herring plot that they, you know…
Kevin: Right. But then essentially, there’s a line, which, I guess, is the end of one act into the next one which is they-, everything would have been fine if it just stayed away from him.
(Clip played)
Pete: Well, I told Mary Ann and Bob not to talk to Gail Berchtold, Bob Berchtold. Don’t let your kids play with their kids. This is a serious thing. Stay away from them. Which they did not do.
(Clip ends)
Skye: Yeah. Pete was so great for really giving us a little bit of perspective on everything. And I don’t think he really knew the power of their faith, really, at that point. And I think with his recommendation like, don’t see this guy anymore. Cut him out of your life. But then when you’ve got a whole chorus of people in your congregation saying, we need to help this guy. He’s obviously sick. There’s something going on. We’ve got to give him our support. We’ve got to give him whatever he needs. Let’s help this person.
Rebecca: I think people too underestimate the degree to which regular people who don’t have a lot of contact with law enforcement will avoid having contact with law enforcement. It’s like a bell they don’t want to ring because you can’t un-ring it. Once you’ve been somebody who’s part of a police investigation or an FBI investigation it’s like, people just look down that road and try to avoid it whether or not they are victims, there’s victims in their family, or if they were going to be witnesses. I mean, this does seem to be a think that like, a lot of middle-class people strenuously avoid doing.
Kevin: Yeah. And especially this couple which seemed to be in denial about so many things. If the police are involved, you can no longer deny there’s an issue.
Rebecca: Correct. And you can’t deny that you may or may not have had a role in that.
Skye: Yeah. Exactly. And I don’t think they had ever before this moment in time had any reason to call the police. And so, had never had any contact whatsoever. So, I think the idea of calling them—
Kevin: Well, they had reason to call the police, but… [laughs]
Skye: Well…
Rebecca: They just didn’t. Yeah.
Skye: This time they did. But I don’t think any time ever before they did. And so, the idea of it was just probably pretty scary.
Rebecca: Now, we hear in the documentary that Bob and Mary Ann have had this rift in their marriage that lasted for some period of time. And then they had reconciled. And you mentioned that he passed away a few months ago. What was their dynamic like when you were making this film? How did the family seem together when you would see them in their inner moments together?
Skye: I mean, the Broberg family are probably the happiest family I’ve ever been in the company of. It’s hard to bel-, it’s hard for me to believe because I just-, I’m constantly awed at their capacity for forgiveness. And I don’t know that I would be able to forgive as much as Jan has been able to forgive certainly. And even her sisters, I mean, there’s just-, there’s so much love and compassion for each other.
And there’s also part of me that kind of believes that they’ve probably done as much introspection as they are able to do. And to do any more is probably not possible for them. And they live in this place where they’re happy. And that’s a really interesting thing to me too because even at this point, for Mary Ann to do any kind-, to go to therapy or to do this or to do that it’s like, for what point? I mean, she’s-, she’s lived a great life. She’s raised three pretty incredible daughters. She had a marriage that lasted, I don’t know how many years, over 50 years. And I think she’s pretty happy. And, why, sort of, mess that up? I think that’s where they all are.
Kevin: So, you’re a storyteller. Where would you say the climax to this story is?
Skye: Oh, interesting. Well, we did play a lot around with time, bending time back and forth. And I think really, the climax really comes when everybody realizes that he’s a bad guy. When the fire happens and when that whole section of the film, it, kind of, takes you up to this point. And then after that you’re able to, kind of, hear how Jan has recovered and how her family has, sort of, dealt with it and the guilt that they have. But I think it’s all, sort of, marching up to that fire, really.
(Clip begins)
Bob: The phone rang. And one of my employees, he was screaming. He said, “Bob, the store’s on fire.” By the time I got there, the fire was very intense.
Female: We were all there standing out on the street. And I just remember looking at that burning building. And my dad just having his arms around all four of us. And [cries] then I remember this very vividly. And he just said, “Let it burn. Let it burn. Everything that I want, everything that matters to me is right here in my arms.”
(Clip ends)
Skye: I mean, metaphorically, you know, it was burning down all of the problems that they had and allowing them to see what had happened and to, kind of-, it’s like the Phoenix, I guess, you know? We want to make our fire metaphors. But that they were able to, kind of, get things together and move forward as a unit after that.
Rebecca: Well, that crime was a tangible crime that they could point to and say this bad man did this bad thing to us. And it isn’t something that anyone was carrying a secret around. Like, it was a thing that he did that you could point to as a crime. And it probably felt very clean in some ways compared to him invading their home, having this, you know, predatory relationship with their daughter and a sexual relationship with the parents. And it was something that they had in common that they could share that they had been victims of at the same time. That’s what I kept thinking about with the fire.
Skye: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s essentially pretty cut and dry. And all of these abuse issues aren’t. I mean, did Jan want to go? Did she not want to go? Who knows? Does it matter? She’s 12. You know, that’s…
Rebecca: Right.
Skye: You can’t say she burned down a building. Like, it’s just so much more murky.
Rebecca: Yeah. I’ll go on record as saying it doesn’t matter whether she thought she wanted to go or not. Because that doesn’t matter when you’re 12.
Skye: Right. Exactly.
Kevin: Right.
Rebecca: That’s a product of grooming is wanting to go even when it’s wrong. So, how much do you think-, you talked about that metaphor of the Phoenix, rising from the ashes. How much do you think that Jan and her mother, you know, working on the book, telling their family’s story and then, you know, going on the road with it… Like, sharing with people outside their community. How much a role do you think that played in their ability to come back together and reconcile and have this forgiveness, you know, with each other and, you know, in their family?
Skye: Yeah. It’s huge. I mean, it’s such a huge thing. And I think that’s one of the reasons why Mary Ann has talked about her sexual indiscretion with Berchtold a lot more because they had this opportunity to share in a public way. And even though-, you know, it was Jan getting up and doing the talks to people and sharing her story. And Mary Ann went with her but didn’t really do much of the public speaking. But afterwards, they’d talk to each other and they’d really communicate about these things.
And Bob never went with them. And so, Bob never had the opportunity to talk about his indiscretion with them. But I think it was so therapeutic for both Jan and Mary Ann. And even now, I look at the conversations since the documentary came out on Netflix that have been brought up. And in a much more complicated way, I mean, when Jan’s giving her speeches, she’s the one in control. And there’s an audience. And they’re face to face. And so, your questions are a little bit more tempered. But what she’s had to deal with since the doc came out, they’ve been much harder questions. And Jan’s been answering them in a really wonderful way. But she’s needing to think about things in a different way again. And the questions are getting easier for her to answer.
And that’s-, I think that’s really an amazing thing from my perspective because so much of what we set out to do with this documentary was start the conversion about child abuse. Get people talking. And it’s a hard conversation. It’s not ever an easy conversation. But to be able to have the conversation is amazing. And for Jan to be able to struggle with the answers and then figure out a way to do it a little bit better. And it becomes not quite so shameful, not so embarrassing, not quite so monumental. And these conversations, they do get easier.
Kevin: I’m going to ask you a binary question. When you deal with a non-fiction piece of any sort, and you just make your decisions about how you’re going to say and what you put in, you either betray the audience by not putting everything in, or you betray your subject by putting in too much. Which did you do?
Skye: Hm. Hm.
Kevin: Okay.
Rebecca: No. That’s fair.
Kevin: Yeah.
Skye: Oh. It has to be one or the other. I feel like I did both. I know that the Broberg’s didn’t want all of the details in that I put in. I know they would have preferred for their sexual indiscretions to be left out. I felt they were integral to telling the truthful story. And I feel like with the audience, I would have loved to put a little bit more about the context of their faith in there. And I would have liked to delve deeper into that and to see how faith really was such an integral part of their life and, and was another element that let Jan down.
Kevin: So, Skye, your first day of filming, you’re thinking about what this documentary is eventually going to be. Is Abducted in Plain Sight what you thought it would be on day one?
Skye: I think it’s a version of what I thought it would be on day one. You know, films go through so many different stages. It was different when I was conceiving of it. Different when I was filming of it, and different when I was editing it. It’s definitely a version of how I perceived it to be. And I’m really happy. And when I go back and watch it and I think of these different paths that we took and experimented with, and then, sort of, ended up coming back and just being with the family, I’m really glad that we took those different detours and ended up back to where the film is now.
Kevin: ‘What the fuck’ moments and all?
Skye: ‘What the fuck’ moments and all.
Rae: That was director Skye Borgman and crime writers Rebecca Lavoie and Kevin Flynn. Before we let you go, we’ve got one more treat for you. You know the segment. It’s time for ‘What you watching?’. It’s where we find out where the people on this episode are watching on Netflix.
Skye: It’s weird but my husband and I have just been leapfrogging The Ted Bundy Tapes and Umbrella Academy. So, it’s been really weird. And I can’t explain why we’ve been doing that. Maybe because, I don’t know, we can’t deal with The Ted Bundy Tapes. Like, they get kind of intense. And so, it’s like, okay, let’s watch Umbrella Academy the next night. And so, we just finished that. And we just started Russian Doll.
Rebecca: Oh. That’s mine. I’ll tell you, Skye, that show is perfect. It’s going to blow your mind. I can’t wait to hear what you think of it when you’re finished. You should write to us and let us know. And I’m just going to put in one more plug for something else on Netflix. This new amazing slate of home shows that I have been discovering on Netflix lately like Amazing Interiors and—
Kevin: So, more like the house in missile silo and stuff like that?
Rebecca: Oh. There’s all sorts of shows like this on Netflix. I love all of them. All of the home shows on Netflix are amazing. As you know, Kevin, I have a lot of love for home shows.
Kevin: I just started The Umbrella Academy. And I have something circled on my calendar. I want to see The Dirt, a Netflix movie about Motley Crüe.
Skye: Oh.
Kevin: Not a doc, but like, a dramatized version of it. So, that should be pretty interesting. But you know what? I can’t stop talking about Bodyguard.
Rae: Yeah. And that’s it for this week’s episode. We’ll be back next month with a new true crime series for you to add to your watch list.
You can find this show on Apple Podcast, Stitcher, Google Play, Spotify, and wherever else you get your podcasts. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review this show. It helps other people find it and it also makes us feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
You Can’t Make This Up is a production of Pineapple Street Media and Netflix. Our music is by Hansdale Hsu. I’m Rae Votta, and thank you so much for listening.
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